[crs1026]

I've seen entire capital works and EA projects proceed on less data than this survey. I'm not saying you're wrong, but simply discounting the data because it asked a subject question would lead to any survey you typically see during a transportation study being discounted. They are inherently going to be skewed. I still think you have to consider the results of this data and dig to see if there's any truth behind it.

One also has to take the data over a period of time rather than a snapshot immediately after the change. This is a transition and the experience will vary over the pilot period. It's inappropriate to draw any conclusions in the first few months. People who are initially scared off may eventually venture back and stick their toes in the water (especially if they had a favourite on King, and come to miss it) and new customers may gradually venture into the area to take up the slack.

My personal complaint with the media is that they are so desperate for things to put in today's paper that they reject news requiring any lengthy study of anything. Investigating train derailments, controversial double fatalities, complicated criminal trials, transit pilots....you name it. Partial and sensational facts that can be printed today are valued more than full methodical and balanced investigations that won't be reportable for another month. We all need to chill, myself included. The facts that matter most in this pilot probably haven't even happened yet.

- Paul

 

[amnesiajune]

How did streetcar bunching get extremely bad after the start of the pilot project, on weekday afternoons? This is despite less variation in trip times.

 

[Admiral Beez]

How did streetcar bunching get extremely bad after the start of the pilot project, on weekday afternoons? This is despite less variation in trip times.

View attachment 130889

It's silly to measure the speed and use of the streetcar without a matching measure of the impact on everyone else.

 

[steveintoronto]

How did streetcar bunching get extremely bad after the start of the pilot project, on weekday afternoons? This is despite less variation in trip times.

It's a very good question, and IIRC, one that Steve Munro found puzzling too.

I'm looking out my window now towards Dundas West, and bunching occurs there regularly. That may be somewhat understandable due to the congestion on Roncy, but here's the thing....they then *leave* the station in a bunch again once looped. Obviously dynamic headway correction isn't occurring, and with the traffic lights working the way they are, that is *exacerbated* rather than corrected.

In the case I experienced yesterday, the problem must have started in the eastern end. It was a 504, not a 514, I took it to Queen and Roncy. There were no fewer than three streetcars virtually empty in the block following as best as I could see before boarding.

I'm still Googling to find some sort of authoritative discourse on the matter as it pertains to King (There's all sorts of studies in general on it, some of the best from Uni of Vic in Oz, re the Melbourne system, esp Bourke Street Mall) but Toronto specifics are very hard to find, if they exist at all.

Addendum: Quick possible and simple reason for Amnesia's question: Traffic light sequence to the east of Bay/Yonge. I boarded at University (I went there to see what the problem is with moving the stop location).

That it is so characteristic as shown by that chart possibly/probably indicates a predisposition of unfavourable signals.

 

[amnesiajune]

Addendum: Quick possible and simple reason for Amnesia's question: Traffic light sequence to the east of Bay/Yonge. I boarded at University (I went there to see what the problem is with moving the stop location).

That it is so characteristic as shown by that chart possibly/probably indicates a predisposition of unfavourable signals.

There's a few possibilities I can think of for why bunching would be worse in one direction, but none of them really explain why the pilot made it so much worse ("unreliable" on 13 of 15 days), especially when that direction was better before the pilot.

Maybe they don't separate streetcars before they leave Broadview? Maybe the Queen -> King left turn causes bunching? Maybe the 514 is messing up headways?

 

[salsa]

Yesterday evening I saw a crowd of people at King & Yonge waiting in vain for a streetcar, clearly bewildered as to why none of them were stopping. Because somehow the TTC thinks that a tattered piece of paper strapped onto a pole is sufficient enough to inform everyone that the stop is no longer in use. I could tell some of them have been waiting for a little while. At one point they stepped onto the street and started banging on the doors to get on. Was really frustrating to witness.

 

[DSC]

Yesterday evening I saw a crowd of people at King & Yonge waiting in vain for a streetcar, clearly bewildered as to why none of them were stopping. Because somehow the TTC thinks that a tattered piece of paper strapped onto a pole is sufficient enough to inform everyone that the stop is no longer in use. I could tell some of them have been waiting for a little while. At one point they stepped onto the street and started banging on the doors to get on. Was really frustrating to witness.

At least earlier yesterday there were very clear notices attached to the (former) Astral shelter @ King & Yonge saying the stop has been moved to east side of Yonge. The signage IN the station is also changed with very clear arrows to STREETCAR. In addition, most operators, will sound horn and wait on far side to pick people up if they have to cross the street. The signage may have been vandalised but people seldom read signage, as we know!

UPDATE. 3.30pm. I walked past again a few minutes ago. There are SEVERAL signs - including one quite 'permanent' one) saying the stop has moved. A couple of people waiting but many more in right place!

 

[steveintoronto]

There's a few possibilities I can think of for why bunching would be worse in one direction, but none of them really explain why the pilot made it so much worse ("unreliable" on 13 of 15 days), especially when that direction was better before the pilot.

Maybe they don't separate streetcars before they leave Broadview? Maybe the Queen -> King left turn causes bunching? Maybe the 514 is messing up headways?

The asymmetry of westbound to eastbound is curious. I was just researching many of the studies on 'tramways' and the traffic patterns affecting and being created by them, will discuss those later, but this is truly of interest, and counterintuitive. Not even that sure I accept it, but: (Some pics deleted to conserve character count)(Bath, btw, is less than 85,000 persons, a little larger than half that of Guelph or Kingston. Canada is so incredibly behind in modern transit infrastructure)

Trams can get through traffic faster than buses or cars without lane segregation

Trams can share road space with cars without being delayed – have a look at the above video – you will see the trams streaming along, with no cars in front, but a queue of cars behind….

There are a number of interlocking reasons why trams are faster through traffic than buses or cars:

First: Trams only stop for 20 secs, because they have large multiple doors and off tram ticketing. This is not available with buses which therefore have to pull over for an extended time whilst people queue and pay and which delays and frustrates users. The bus then has to force its way back into the traffic which has passed and queued in front of the bus; whereas the tram stays in the road, holding back cars for only 20 secs which is a minor inconvenience and crucially means that there are no cars in front when it restarts. Another factor is that bus passengers have to sit down, closely packed, due to the violence of a buses movement – in trams due to the gradual acceleration and slowing, most passengers stand, as per the London Underground which greatly speeds boarding and deboarding.

Note 1 – the slightly delayed cars more than make up for this due to the unimpeded run they get behind the tram

Note 2 – First Bus recently found that even with a pre-paid ticket app the fastest time the could load a double decker was 2 mins 30 secs – see the video here

Second: Because trams give a much better service than buses (fast, reliable, frequent, comfortable, prestigious) trams are well used, so traffic authorities will grant them traffic light pre-emption rights which they do not do for little used buses ( due to complaints from motorists about underused buses having these rights). Traffic light pre-emption means that when the traffic computer detects a tram coming, well before the tram arrives at a junction, it can preemptively set ALL lights in such a way as to clear the road ahead before the tram arrives by a) preventing other cars from joining the road ahead and b) setting the several sets of lights ahead to green to move the traffic forward; this means the tram gets a clear run when it arrives at a given junction, even without segregated roads space – it’s been done for trams in Zurich since the 70s and most other tram systems. ( but doesn’t work for buses)





Above – simplified video of Green Wave Traffic Light Priority – in fact it would not be applied to just the one junction, but also simultaneously to sufficient of the lights ahead to ensure no impediment to the tram progress, factoring time at stops.

For example imagine a tram approaching the Batheaston bypass / London Road junction from Batheaston – before the tram arrives the lights on the bypass slip roads are set to red to prevent cars entering the roundabout and the London Road from the bypass; also sufficient of the London Road lights ahead are set to green, so that when the tram gets to the roundabout over the bypass there are no cars on the London road, such that it may proceed at its normal speed, allowing for scheduled stops. All timings calculated by a central computer. This can only be done if the tram is on a regular well defined time schedule since the lights as far ahead as the Wellsway Roundabout may need to be set.

Note: Many people may say well let’s apply all this to buses. For economic reasons that just doesn’t work for a number of reasons:

• Due to the need for economy buses are cheap and cheerful and don’t last long so its not worth fitting the expensive off tram ticketing arrangements.
• Cheap and cheerful means they are structurally unable to have large multi- doors.
• Bus company on tight margins are constantly juggling, changing and withdrawing routes so this does not justify the installation of the complex equipment necessary for logging tram positions and the central control systems.
• Trams are an expensive long term operation and can support the extra capex needed for smooth running through traffic and off-tram ticketing

The World Bank has this to say about traffic light pre-emption – 1/3 way down the article

“In some cases, public transport vehicles may be given ‘zero wait’ priority – this is usually only done for trams, but may also done for BRT. In this case, the phases are extended or truncated sufficiently quickly that the light is always green when the vehicle arrives. The vehicle detection point needs to be located at an appropriate distance to allow sufficient time for the phase changes to be done safely.” It neglects to say that side roads are also shut of, and green lights are set ahead of the tram also so that their is a wave of no traffic continuously in front of the tram. ( Prof Lewis better explanation further down)

World Bank Toolkit on Intelligent Transport Systems for Urban Transport

Third: Trams can accelerate and decelerate more quickly than a bus

Lane segregation

Notwithstanding all of the foregoing, there are large parts of the proposed network which could have a dedicated tram track – notably most of the London Road, and most of the Wellsway even close to the station. This would entail a single line down the centre with passing loops – this is done today in the centre of Bilbao for example a modern system and also Lisbon.

Beneficial effect on motorists

This system is in fact beneficial for motorists as it organizes them into “platoons” which can move much faster than in normal traffic, and by virtue of the tram taking cars off the road the remaining drivers have a faster drive.
[...continued next pane...]

https://bathtrams.uk/solving-baths-...rs-buses-even-whilst-sharing-congested-roads/

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yesterday evening I saw a crowd of people at King & Yonge waiting in vain for a streetcar, clearly bewildered as to why none of them were stopping. Because somehow the TTC thinks that a tattered piece of paper strapped onto a pole is sufficient enough to inform everyone that the stop is no longer in use. I could tell some of them have been waiting for a little while. At one point they stepped onto the street and started banging on the doors to get on. Was really frustrating to witness.

People are like sheep. How can one in a crowd see an in-service car roll past without thinking, hmmm maybe this isn't a stop and then turn their head slightly to the right to see the same streetcar stop to pick up at the stop? Even if there's no passengers to pick up at the stop, surely one might try to ponder what's going on?

 

[steveintoronto]

(Continued from prior pane)

Here is an explanation from Professor Lesley a transport expert:

“Dave Andrews has asked me to respond to several emails:
London Road is like many urban roads throughout the UK (and EU). It performs several functions; long distance through traffic, inward commuting trips and local traffic movements. My guess on the basis of the data available is that about 20% of London Road is through traffic, not stopping in Bath.

The Bath tramway plan is aimed at the other c70% of car movements, with 4 out of 5 having only one occupant. For external commuting trips, edge of city P + R with the tramway would provide an acceptable alternative to a large number. For local car trips, walk and tram ride is also acceptable for a significant number of trips. On other UK tramways over 25% of passengers have left a car at home, and in Croydon traffic volumes have reduced by a fifth, as traffic management measures have been introduced to assist the tramway, and discourage ‘suppressed’ car trips from filling the space vacated by car trips attracted to tram.
Each Bath tram will have a transponder, which will indicate its position to the area traffic (signal) control computer. The computer will have algorithms that will calculate the optimum moment to turn a traffic signal in front of a tram to green to release queuing traffic, so the tram has a junction crossing without delay. The logic is not creating ‘gaps’ every 6mins, but keeping the traffic in front of trams moving with a ‘green wave‘. Part of this is to meter traffic entering from side roads, as on motorway slip roads, so that the main road does keep moving. This was first tested in the 1970’s on the Bitterne Road in Southampton. Car traffic (with av. 1.2 occupants) has no worse delay, except it queues on side roads, rather than the main road.

At a typical traffic signalled junction, the (cycle) time from green to green is usually between 60 and 90 secs. So there will be at least 3 cycles without trams, when the tram green (phase) time can be used by other traffic. It is Government policy that trams should enjoy pre-emption of traffic signals, since without that it has been calculated for the new Preston tramway, that on average there would be 25 minutes passenger delay for each tram crossing a busy junction.

Putting these two approaches together; attracting many external commuting and local trips to tram, coupled with ‘green wave‘ traffic signal control including tram pre-emption, will keep traffic moving on London Road, and similar roads in Bath, so letting trams operate a speedy service (c20 – 25km/hr including stops). For many car trips trams will give a journey faster than driving (including parking time) for some people. Econometric equations calculate the probability of car trips switching to tram, based on the relative quality of service and cost of travel. There is more about these points in my “Light Rail Developers’ Handbook”.

With kind regards,
Yours sincerely,
Lewis Lesley

ljslesley@aol.com

Note: Its generally not practicable or politically viable to apply Green Wave to buses, because a 350 person tram only requires a preemption every 6 minutes, whereas it would take 5 buses to achieve the same effect, and this would require a preemption every minute, and this would hold up other traffic.
Also the bus would not take off the 25% of the car drivers as the trams have in other British tram installs. ( car drivers will switch to trams but not buses it has been found)
Dave Andrews

https://www.bathtrams.uk/

https://bathtrams.uk/solving-baths-...rs-buses-even-whilst-sharing-congested-roads/

Also see:

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-rules/a-to-z-of-road-rules/trams

Melbourne and State of Victoria have hosted a number of intense studies on the math and physics of the kinesiology, and are presently applying them to Yarra Trams (Melbourne). More comment later.

 

[Forgotten]

The pedestrian zone in front of Fred's Not Here has "mysteriously" been pushed out of the way, creating a parking zone in front of that restaurant.

View attachment 130573

View attachment 130574

The King Street Pilot office has been notified.

What's the difference between blocking a pedestrian zone with a car versus blocking a pedestrian zone with a doubled in width patio? The latter of which is what you wanted all along?

 

[Boulevardier]

Did they compare king to other comparable streets? It's been colder than usual, for one. Many retailers not on King have been seeing bigger downturns than usual this year. What was their sampling methodology? What were the questions asked? How can they be sure the people, i.e. business owners, answering the surveys were being honest--maybe they personally drive, and are misrepresenting business downturns because they're personally unhappy?

Have the retailers provided Moneris data or similar quantitative sources? No. There's a big one.

Also not mentioned is that the last two big shows at the POW and Royal Alex closed just before the pilot. None of the restaurants quoted in the Star are west of Peter.

 

[amnesiajune]

The asymmetry of westbound to eastbound is curious. I was just researching many of the studies on 'tramways' and the traffic patterns affecting and being created by them, will discuss those later, but this is truly of interest, and counterintuitive. Not even that sure I accept it, but: (Some pics deleted to conserve character count)(Bath, btw, is less than 85,000 persons, a little larger than half that of Guelph or Kingston. Canada is so incredibly behind in modern transit infrastructure)

https://bathtrams.uk/solving-baths-...rs-buses-even-whilst-sharing-congested-roads/

Remember that turning right on red lights is illegal in almost all of Europe. So when a light is being held green for a streetcar, no cars are joining the road ahead of it.

Also remember that being in a smaller city means that there will be less traffic getting in the way of their buses and streetcars.

 

[steveintoronto]

Remember that turning right on red lights is illegal in almost all of Europe. So when a light is being held green for a streetcar, no cars are joining the road ahead of it.

Also remember that being in a smaller city means that there will be less traffic getting in the way of their buses and streetcars.

Except that holds only to the comparison of Bath, some 83,000 persons. The studies and effects quoted by the article apply to much larger cities, and here's the multi-city basis for one of the studies cited:

Many right turn lanes on King are now marked as the equivalent of the "slip roads" mentioned in some of the studies. And Melbourne, which I'll detail excerpts from later, is *larger* than Toronto, and has the world's largest tram system, by quite a measure.

Here's a UK site with extensive information for various systems on it:
http://citytransport.info/Signals.htm

And Croydon's tramlink, part of a very extensive reply by the local authority to an FOI request:

[...]
1) Croydon Council as highway authority agreed to provide Tramlink with
tram priority at traffic signals. Please provide a list of junctions and
tram crossings where this applies.

Tram priority (or Light Rapid Transit mode – LRT) applies to all of the
traffic signal controlled junctions on the Tramlink network, see below
(including our traffic signal reference number before the site location):
-

LONDON BOROUGH OF CROYDON

20/006 - GEORGE STREET - PARK STREET - PARK LANE - WELLESLEY ROAD

20/008 - NORTH END ROAD - STATION ROAD -LONDON ROAD - TAMWORTH ROAD

20/036 - CAIRO NEW ROAD - TAMWORTH ROAD -CHURCH STREET

20/081 - A212-WELLESLEY ROAD - STATION ROAD

20/100 - WELLESLEY ROAD - POPLAR WALK

20/135 - GEORGE STREET - DINGWALL ROAD

20/213 - ADDISCOMBE RD - CHEPSTOW ROAD - CLYDE ROAD - RADCLIFFE ROAD

20/215 - ADDISCOMBE RD - ADDISCOMBE GROVE - CHERRY ORCHARD ROAD

20/217 - A212 WELLESLEY ROAD - LANSDOWNE ROAD

20/220 - CROWN HILL - FRITH ROAD - MIDDLE STREET

20/221 - GRAVEL HILL - COOMBE ROAD - TRAMWAY CROSSING

20/222 - OAKS ROAD - TRAMWAY CROSSING

20/223 - A212 GRAVEL HILL - ADDINGTON PALACE GOLF CLUB

20/224 - A2022 KENT GATE WAY - ADDINGTON PARK

20/225 - KENT GATE WAY - TRANSPORT INTERCHANGE (REPLACED 20/107)

20/226 - LODGE LANE - KING HENRYS ROUNDABOUT

20/227 - PARKWAY BY KING HENRYS ROUNDABOUT

20/229 - BINGHAM ROAD BY TRAMWAY CROSSING

20/230 - LOWER ADDISCOMBE ROAD BY TRAMWAY CROSSING

20/284 - TAMWORTH ROAD - FIRTH ROAD - CROYDON CENTRALE

LONDON BOROUGH OF MERTON

22/040 - KINGSTON ROAD - HARTFIELD ROAD - TRAMWAY CROSSING

22/168 - DUNDONALD ROAD - TRAMWAY CROSSING

LONDON BOROUGH OF SUTTON

21/107 - BEDDINGTON LANE - TRAMWAY CROSSING

2) In the case of road junctions where trams also cross, ie which are
more than merely a tram crossing of a road, please provide an explanation
of how tram priority works.

Tram priority works in a similar manner at each of the 23 junctions on the
Tramlink network. Inductive loop detectors are installed under the
tramway; the demand detector is situated at between 150m and 200m from the
junction. As a tram passes over it a demand is registered with the signal
controller to move as quickly as possible to a point in the signal
sequence where the tram receives a signal to proceed. A second detector
is situated at the tram stop line. As the tram passes over it the
priority demand is removed and the signals will move off the tram
‘proceed’ signal. A third detector is situated on the exit side of
the junction. As the tram passes over it the signals drop out of tram
mode (LRT) and move to service the next vehicle or pedestrian demands
around the junction.

All of the signal installations are demand dependent meaning that they
react to vehicle or pedestrian demand. It is not possible to give the
actual green running times for any phase at any junction as Vehicle
Actuation is a fully adaptive system and timings will change depending
upon traffic demand.

3) How is this system of tram priority prescribed, and how much can the
council reduce it in the interests of other road users?

Tram priority is prescribed by The Office of Rail Regulation document -
Railway Safety Publication 2
([1]http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/n.... The Highway
Authority (the Council) agreed at the time of implementation that trams
would get ultimate priority through a junction and therefore the LRT mode
of operation was introduced.

The Highway Authority may remove tram priority at any time, at any
junction, should it so desire with the agreement of Transport for London
and the tram operators.

4) In central Croydon, there are key tram road junctions at:

Addiscombe Road / Chepstow Road

Addiscombe Road / Cherry Orchard Road

Wellesley Road / George Street

Wellesley Road / Station Road

London Road / Station Road

Tamworth Road / Cairo New Road

For each of these junctions and associated signals, please provide a
diagram and listing showing the phases and times which apply, and how
these vary across the day and week. For example, Road 1 and time, Tram and
time, Road 2 and time etc.

The operation of these tram sites (defining phases and times) is
classified in the document referenced in section 3. In addition, as all
the sites run Vehicle Actuated timings, this means that the green time
varies every cycle depending on the volume of traffic waiting at the stop
lines. Based on these facts we are unable to supply the information in
the format that you have requested

5) What is the procedure to ensure that if a tram call comes, each road
gets a fair chance, and there are no long waits?

See explanation above. If a Tram arrives at a traffic signal site it will
get priority through the junction. The controller will then service the
other demands, but if another tram arrives at the junction this will also
trigger priority through the junction.
[...continues at length...]

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/tramlink_tram_priority_at_traffi_2

There's many things that can be done for the King Korridor with even just the vertical white bar as described under the HTA. But it would take an impetus that appears absent at this time with TO Council.

 

[MetroMan]

One thing I think they should try during the pilot is to allow Taxis to use King St at all times of the day, they pay for a medallion, if there's too many using it during the day could be reduced by even and odd license plates numbers... and it's one way to introduce a few more cars to the street.

The King Street Pilot completely breaks down once the taxi exemption goes into effect after 10pm. The exemption should be widthdrawn not extended.