[crs1026]

So, when will we have data from Moneris or equivalent?

If one analyses the calendar too closely, one will find something wrong with every season. The wait to start the pilot after Council approved it was excruciating, but I can't imagine getting everything ready much faster. I'm certain the 504 riders wouldn't have wanted it delayed further. We should not get sucked into a pointless coulda, shoulda discussion.

King Street west of Mirvishland is not Toronto's most attractive street space to start with (I will take any of Queen, College, or St Clair first) If the only thing the business owners can suggest to improve it is more cars, well..... that speaks to the inertia in their own business models. Business owners aren't guaranteed parking any more than they are guaranteed low rents. I don't see much effort to adapt.

- Paul

 

[DSC]

Agreed. Pilot should have started in the fall (September ) or in this Spring.

I doubt that there is ever a good time to start a major change like this; starting it in November was probably as good a month as any other and ought to allow the City to sort out the traffic stuff before the time comes to 'animate' the street and expand the pedestrian areas. The main aim was to make transit more reliable and from my observations and from Steve Munro's data this seems to be being achieved. Now the City needs to ensure that merchants do not suffer and that the other changes to the street help them expand. Wider sidewalks would certainly be good, for everyone, at "restaurant row' where the patios currently take up FAR too much sidewalk space.

 

[steveintoronto]

There's different mechanisms that the city can propose to mitigate negative impacts on King. The parking discount is one, albeit unsustainable one IMO.

I don't understand why so many people assume that businesses on King Street losing money automatically means that the project will be cancelled. It may turn out that there's nothing that can feasibly be done to mitigate certain elements that have fundamentally changed because of the streetcar and that's OK. the corridor is evolving and will begin attractive the type of establishments that are more likely to thrive in a transit-oriented environment.

Now the City needs to ensure that merchants do not suffer and that the other changes to the street help them expand. Wider sidewalks would certainly be good, for everyone, at "restaurant row' where the patios currently take up FAR too much sidewalk space.

A very simple answer, assuming that there is sufficient *paid* parking available off of King Street (and some posters indicate this being the case) is to issue a *King Street Two Hour Transfer* or a paper pass for limited time with a time stamp on it, when paying for parking. Or the parking ticket stub itself. Local businesses could also buy these in bulk, and either gift them to customers upon a major purchase, or charge whatever they feel is apt. A condition of tariff would be use only outside of rush-hour. Travel during peak would require a regular TTC fare. This 'pass' would be only for the 504/514, and only for the core section.

If the City immediately proposes this and begin to implement it (it will take some time to do so) then local biz concerns are not only addressed, it actually *promotes* the use of transit in the corridor, and shoppers and others, especially those will limited mobility, would have no reason to not gravitate to King for shopping or leisure.

The only ones that would/could object to this? The taxi industry.

I do see possibility by the TTC as stating this will have to be budgeted by the City, not by the TTC's operating budget (there will be some cost to implementing a scheme like this, albeit minimal). There's a very real irony in this, as this is to *SAVE* $Billions in cost of building more subway. So no matter which or whose budget this comes out of, it saves massive amounts in the long-term.

That is a bit complex for the burghers (burgers? lol, hold my relish) of this City, however. That only approx $1.5M has been allocated for this pilot is indicative of the mindset and priorities of this Council. The third busiest route in Toronto, and they throw peanut shells at it to see if it will dance for them.

 

[pstogios]

The city could never have predicted the brutally cold stretch that thankfully just ended. Perhaps that had a huge impact on visitors to King St, no matter via walking, biking, transit or by car.

What I want to see is a year-over-year comparison (using Moneris data) of business activity in other areas of the city. For example, did business on Queen St suffer compared to last winter? College St? If so, then you can blame the business slow-down on the bitter cold, and the businesses on King can go shove it.

 

[SunriseChampion]

I don't know, I walked from Mercer to Bathurst on Boxing Day in minus whatever the hell (sun though! ♡) weather at around 10 in the morning and saw an amount of pedestrians in that stretch that I would best describe as "Sunday morning at 8 in August"....so, not much emptier. The pubs were doing fine custom (especially the one I ended up at ).
Deffo not as empty as that photo.
I even patronised a couple of businesses on my way in spite of the lack of parking.

I live in Mimico too, so it's not as if I was out for my usual morning stroll. (Meaning, I left my warm home on the far side of the bay, got on a bus, transferred at Dufferin to a streetcar, walked south from Queen, picked up a friend and walked back west in bloody chilly weather because there was a destination I deemed worth getting to.)

There should be enough customers in a half km radius alone, not to mention the transit riders, which outnumber drivers through there.
Believe me, come summer......booming.
I'll be there anyway (it's my favourite Toronto high road, but that's a different thread).

 

[SunriseChampion]

Gotta love this forum. People will be yelling up and down the street when any data supports bike lanes or LRT, but the second any inkling of data suggests that *gasp* we may need to go back to drawing board on King Street regarding impacts to businesses, it's automatically assumed they're lying or the data is false.
.

For the record, I claimed neither that they were lying nor that the data were false. I merely don't understand the need for out-front parking nor why businesses in that area of town have business models that are predicated on street parking out front.

....just saying.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Come August, with a two-hour transfer, I would expect more riders in the 504/514 streetcars along King Street. Two hours is enough time to ride to a stop along King, order, eat, pay, and return. With parking coming to $4.00 per hour, and not counting fuel, it would be cheaper to use the TTC.

 

[nfitz]

Seriously LOL. This stretch seems more bendy than others.

You need to get out more.

Here's a busy but much more bendy one in another old North American neighbourhood.

 

[nfitz]

Come August, with a two-hour transfer, I would expect more riders in the 504/514 streetcars along King Street. Two hours is enough time to ride to a stop along King, order, eat, pay, and return. With parking coming to $4.00 per hour, and not counting fuel, it would be cheaper to use the TTC.

The most expensive piece of King Street would have gone to $5 an hour then, with the 2018 budget coming into effect - unless council votes to cancel the planned increase.

 

[MetroMan]

Gotta love this forum. People will be yelling up and down the street when any data supports bike lanes or LRT, but the second any inkling of data suggests that *gasp* we may need to go back to drawing board on King Street regarding impacts to businesses, it's automatically assumed they're lying or the data is false.

That's the thing. We're not denying that data is false. There is no data. What we have is anecdotal accounts by businesses who immediately assumed that the reason they're losing business is because the street looks empty. Actual data, measuring businesses both on King and off King will establish whether loss in business is due to the pilot or if business is also down elsewhere in the city, perhaps it's because of something else entirely like the brutal early onset of Winter this year.

What I know living along King for 15 years (the last 6 of them living in the pilot zone near the complaining businesses) is that pedestrian traffic patterns haven't really changed. It's quiet in the evening during week days, during the week in business hours there are creative professionals walking the streets, and lunch time sees a burst of people heading towards the restaurants. Then on weekend nights, it all explodes and there are thousands of people packing sidewalks and spilling on to the road. Then Sunday morning, you go out and it's an entirely different street again: just a few locals out walking their dogs.

What has changed is that there are far fewer cars on the road and there are no cars parked along the curb lanes. But that's the entire point. The side effect is that it makes the street look empty. But that's because King Street's current built form is for cars. Without the cars, of course it looks empty. Once sidewalks are widened, street furniture and trees are added, then King will look like the pedestrian mall it's inevitably going to become with the explosion of residential density in this area. People will give King Street life, not parked or gridlocked cars.

I'll say one more thing without mentioning names because some of these businesses are owned by my friends and business clients: I've visited their establishments to support them, and I've often found them busy — even busy enough that I couldn't get a table. Some of these business owners have confided in me that their clientele are mostly walk in locals, and they can't explain how business is down, but that it's coincided with the pilot so it must be the pilot's fault. Some of these business owners have seen their business return after the shock of winter has settled in and people are coming out again. And some of them have stopped complaining. There are a few determined complainers but if you look closely, these have been complaining that the sky is falling for decades and their establishments are still there.

 

[TransitBart]

Come August, with a two-hour transfer, I would expect more riders in the 504/514 streetcars along King Street. Two hours is enough time to ride to a stop along King, order, eat, pay, and return. With parking coming to $4.00 per hour, and not counting fuel, it would be cheaper to use the TTC.

More evidence that this was rushed. Pages of bullshit and griping here could have been avoided. And business grumbling - most of it likely quite valid - could have been avoided or mitgated with a smart start at Labour Day or Spring, a simultaneous change to two hour timed transfer on the TTC, and some 'King-licious' style promotion by the city.

 

[nfitz]

More evidence that this was rushed. Pages of bullshit and griping here could have been avoided. And business grumbling - most of it likely quite valid - could have been avoided or mitgated with a smart start at Labour Day or Spring, a simultaneous change to two hour timed transfer on the TTC, and some 'King-licious' style promotion by the city.

Start it right at the beginning of the biggest shift of daily change in the year? And combine several other changes?

No.

You change one thing at a time.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The city could never have predicted the brutally cold stretch that thankfully just ended. Perhaps that had a huge impact on visitors to King St, no matter via walking, biking, transit or by car.

What I want to see is a year-over-year comparison (using Moneris data) of business activity in other areas of the city. For example, did business on Queen St suffer compared to last winter? College St? If so, then you can blame the business slow-down on the bitter cold, and the businesses on King can go shove it.

That's exactly what they did with the Bloor Street pilot.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I was down at the MEC this afternoon. The street itself is empty. Streetcars fly along the street. Saw nothing but Flexities over about 45mins. You can see from the photo looking east that I took that there is little activity. It is cold. It was a bad time to start. There can be no doubt that the traffic is not seasonally strong. I would reserve judgement about business. The proof will be when we see who is left after the winter. Any of us who has worked retail, know that winter can be brutal on walk-in traffic.

I would stand by the following statement for the time being. This pilot is not making business easier or better.

In retrospect - given the inertia in human behavior - I believe that this could have been marketed better and that a start - timed to coincide with the first warm Spring season weather would have been more practical and obviated a good deal of the kickback.

In another thread, I joked to another poster that he had never been shopping with my Dad. If you are with my Dad, you are on a hunt for a parking spot as close to where you are going as you can get. If my father is the typical customer here, we are in trouble.

BTW - the walk back to Spadina to grab the 510 had me cursing the cold. It's an easy block from Charlotte to Spadina. I was frozen when I reached the stop.


View attachment 131825

Is King Street Toronto's ugliest street? Perhaps these businesses should try advocating for some serous public realm improvements here (like Front Street or Queens Quay).

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Mr Tory will be providing an update on the KSP later this morning. Given that he’s been a fairly strong supporter of the pilot up to now, I’d expect whatever he announces will be good news. Hopefully it’s the Moneris data.