Dan416
Senior Member
I started to see this in the past few years as well.
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Tunafish13
Active Member
Very thorough answer, thank you for explaining. What would you recommend for King St that would also apply to the HTA?
To me it sounds like an always red light would work well (with only the bike and transit signals alternating green and red) and then only activate the solid green traffic light during hours in which deliveries and taxi's can go through.
In all honesty, I get why taxis and deliveries would like access, but it would make so much more sense to just pedestrianize at least part of King with just the streetcars going down the middle. Or even just every other block, so its guaranteed that no cars can go straight. If other cities can have pedestrian malls with streetcars, I dont see why we cant either.
DSC
Superstar
Yes, there does need to be some access for deliveries but having complex rules which need more and more signage are simply confusing. King should be the same 24/7
chrisw
Active Member
Will the red light cameras be able to ticket people turning left?
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I agree that just showing red all day along King is fine. In the short term (within the HTA) I'd make a few minor adjustments:
- remove one of the bicycle signal heads
- remove the Bicycle Signal sign
- relocate the remaining bicycle signal head lower down near the pedestrian head (some intersections already have this)
- have the bicycle signal display the same thing as the transit signal
- install a red light camera
- at the few intersections where there is a significant volume of legal traffic, use the existing intersection cameras to only trigger the right turn arrow if there are more than 2 cars waiting. This avoids unnecessary pedestrian delay.
- at the other intersections where there's a right turn phase, remove the right turn phase from the normal cycle. Streetcars can still trigger the right turn phase to get additional green time after the end of the pedestrian count down.
In the longer term we desperately need some HTA updates to allow us to use white transit signals instead of red/amber/green signals.
The most important addition is diagonal white bars to represent turns. Those could replace the vertical white bars currently used in Toronto to represent transit turns, which frees up the vertical bar to represent a straight through movement such as on King. It could be also installed as a 4th aspect on signals along transit routes to allow buses to proceed straight during the Leading Pedestrian Interval.
It would also be good to have the option of horizontal bars instead of yellow and red lights on transit signal heads. There should be a line in the HTA that allows municipalities to authorize specific vehicles to also use the transit signal when necessary, such as garbage trucks and snowplows. That would avoid the need to write "and authorized vehicles" on signs. With these changes, the Transit Signal sign would no longer be required.
The requirement to have two signal heads should be waived for transit signals, or at least provide an exemption that allows the secondary head to be on the near side, like the exemption was added for bicycle signals in 2016.
Once the HTA is updated and all existing vertical bars in Toronto are changed to diagonal bars, the Transit Signal signs on King could be either removed entirely (replaced with just a single white bar above the red light), or one head could remain with white bar aspects and the Transit Signal sign removed.
Yes. It is illegal to proceed straight or left during a red light.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I suspect that's because of the leading pedestrian intervals that creates a 10+ second intergreen time for motor traffic. All motor traffic is stopped for several seconds before oncoming traffic gets a green, so those illegal lefts just need to dodge the pedestrians who have a walk light.
That move can save a ton of time for someone turning left and it doesn't even endanger the driver, it only endangers others (pedestrians). So it's an attractive option for people without a conscience. Same for people running the end of red lights - with leading pedestrian intervals they only endanger pedestrians and not themselves.
The solution is to change the order or signal phases such that the leading pedestrian interval is during the clearance time of another movement (such as a lagging left turn phase). That way turning left ahead of traffic would endanger the driver making the illegal move, discouraging them from doing it.
evandyk
Senior Member
I think the best solution would be sensors to detect how many cars want to turn right and give them a dedicated right turn window without pedestrian conflict. Then a red light at all other times.
The traffic wardens there now often do this by holding up pedestrians at the beginning or end of greens to let a few cars through.
The traffic wardens there now often do this by holding up pedestrians at the beginning or end of greens to let a few cars through.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
They already have cameras at most (all?) signals on King in the priority area that are used count movements (including illegal movements). Assuming they can see a couple car lengths past the stop line, they can use the existing cameras to call and extend the right turn arrow, in which case they don't even need any new sensors
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Get rid of the patios, and move loading to nights only.
DSC
Superstar
Most businesses on King which rely on street deliveries are not open 24/7 - it is unreasonable to expect them to be. The patios are on the street now (in the former parking lane) because the sidewalks are so narrow - the plan once the street is rebuilt is to widen the sidewalks so they can accommodate pedestrians and patios and to narrow the road.
turini2
Active Member
The very excellent Marco Chitti replies to the viral silly sign set up ...
reaperexpress
Senior Member
His design violates countless HTA regulations. Everything seems easy when you don't know what you're talking about.
T3G
Senior Member