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PinkLucy said:
Streetcars that have the dedicated right of way (Bathurst, Spadina, QQ) don't block traffic because passengers embark/disembark on the medians.
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That is true....but does not apply to King or Queen and I am not sure there is room to do that there....unless, of course, you remove cars.

Bathurst is interesting because it is not every stop that has the medians....it is a sort of, I guess, mix between dedicated right of ways and mixed traffic.
 
PinkLucy said:
Same with College

So perhaps some type of mix could be instituted on King and Queen?
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Maybe but I would have to think that the area with the greatest car/streetcar conflict or congestion related to the mix is probably the area with the least amount of room in the roadway to insert the islands?
 
TOareaFan said:
While I am not in favour of closing King or Queen to vehicular traffic, I am (as I stated earlier) very much in favour of enforced no-car in streetcar lanes in extended rush hours (6-10 in the a.m. and 3 - 7 in the p.m.). That said, there is a pretty significant differnce between how buses and streetcars interact with cars on two lane streets with mixed traffic.
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Thanks for not solving the problem. I don't care how much enforcement there is, I can guarantee that people will block the streetcar with their cars. And then we have to take into account that left turn lanes will be needed, which will definitely block the streetcars. Remove the cars completely. We must not compromise the integrity of the system that 60,000 people (maybe even 100,000+ if cars are removed), for the sake of convenience for 17,000 people. It makes no sense.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Thanks for not solving the problem. I don't care how much enforcement there is, I can guarantee that people will block the streetcar with their cars. And then we have to take into account that left turn lanes will be needed, which will definitely block the streetcars. Remove the cars completely. We must not compromise the integrity of the system that 60,000 people (maybe even 100,000+ if cars are removed), for the sake of convenience for 17,000 people. It makes no sense.
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Interesting. That's the exact same logic that got Jarvis put back to 5 lanes of traffic, and one of the main arguments against LRT or even improved bus service in the suburbs.

Careful with logic that maximizes benefit to current users.

I am strongly in favour of King in a ROW, but because it will make the street more efficient (good for the pocket book, etc.) not because there are a large number of current King riders.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Thanks for not solving the problem. I don't care how much enforcement there is, I can guarantee that people will block the streetcar with their cars. And then we have to take into account that left turn lanes will be needed, which will definitely block the streetcars. Remove the cars completely. We must not compromise the integrity of the system that 60,000 people (maybe even 100,000+ if cars are removed), for the sake of convenience for 17,000 people. It makes no sense.
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I think that with the right level of fines and enforcement this would work to move the streetcars better when they are needed most:

1. New, bigger/brighter signs, telling people that can't be in those lanes between 6 and 10 in the a.m. and 3 and 7 in the p.m.
2. New, bigger/brighter signs, telling people they can't stop (never mind park) in the right lane in those hours (including - importantly - telling the Hyatt that cab service to their guests has to be off of Widmar not King)
3. New, bigger/brighter signs, telling people that they cannot turn left off of King during those hours.
4. New, bigger, fines for offending
5. A 3 month enforcement blitz by the police to get the message through
6. Ongoing enforcement after the blitz
 
The reason for draining this particular swamp is to ascertain whether streetcar operations are compromised by operating in mixed traffic or not.

We have the mixed traffic example on display every day, it doesn't require any deep analysis to decide whether it works or not. It simply needs a period of the alternative solution which is obviously streetcars only to provide the data needed to make an intelligent decision.

No need for the "I hate streetcars" or the " I love streetcars" dichotomy unless the results prove inconclusive in which case the fun will continue.
 
TOareaFan said:
I think that with the right level of fines and enforcement this would work to move the streetcars better when they are needed most:

1. New, bigger/brighter signs, telling people that can't be in those lanes between 6 and 10 in the a.m. and 3 and 7 in the p.m.
2. New, bigger/brighter signs, telling people they can't stop (never mind park) in the right lane in those hours (including - importantly - telling the Hyatt that cab service to their guests has to be off of Widmar not King)
3. New, bigger/brighter signs, telling people that they cannot turn left off of King during those hours.
4. New, bigger, fines for offending
5. A 3 month enforcement blitz by the police to get the message through
6. Ongoing enforcement after the blitz
Click to expand...

Still, the biggest issue will be enforcement. No amount of cops will be able to keep it 100% enforced.

If we must have cars on King, enforcement should be done electronically. Have cameras along King street. If they detect a car entering or crossing the streetcar lanes, the driver receives a $400 ticket in the mail.
 
spider:

The reason for draining this particular swamp is to ascertain whether streetcar operations are compromised by operating in mixed traffic or not.
Click to expand...
o need for the "I hate streetcars" or the " I love streetcars" dichotomy unless the results prove inconclusive in which case the fun will continue.
Click to expand...

Personally, I find that rationale slightly ad hoc and after the fact - we already knew operations of any kind will be compromised if you have to share the right of way - that doesn't require any experiment to demonstrate. What this experiment is supposed to demonstrate is a) in what manner and to what extent are streetcar operations improved and b) what is the impact on other users of said right of way. And after that, there is the loaded question - what is the acceptable balance between the two.

AoD
 
I don't accept the argument that king street can't be closed to cars because of taxis and delivery vehicles -
- The plan from c. 2006 as I understand it, allowed one lane for local traffic
- All large buildings on King St. also front onto some other street, for example Bay or Yonge

I can see how it would be challenging to serve smaller businesses which only front on King, there may be some that also do not have an alley. Curb cutouts may have to be added for delivery vehicles to stop while still allowing one lane of traffic to move. But I doubt this is a big problem, certainly it is something that can be solved. Stephen Ave. Mall in Calgary is a pedestrian zone in the financial core and has a number of small businesses such as restaurants - there they allow automobiles between 6pm and 6am, a variation of this would probably resolve any remaining issues.

I can also see that because of the volume of commercial traffic on King it may be undesirable. This is part of the reason I think Queen is a better candidate. There are few office towers on Queen St. There is also more pedestrian traffic on Queen, especially near Spadina, and so the potential as a pedestrial mall may be higher.
 
Perhaps make Queen St, pedestrian only throughout the length of it, and make King cars only with no busses or streetcars.
 
M II A II R II K said:
Perhaps make Queen St, pedestrian only throughout the length of it, and make King cars only with no busses or streetcars.
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Something like that may be necessary for political support, logically however it doesn't make much sense unless there is a DRL. King streetcar is the busiest line in the city and carries many more people than the cars that go along King. Furthermore King already parallels, Lakeshore, the Gardiner, Richmond and Adelaide, so I think a reasonable argument can be made that the real problem is car traffic on King, and that streetcars are part of the solution.

I am saying that it may be easier to get support for turning Queen into a pedestrian mall from Spadina to Church or beyond. Apparently the proposal was last shot down because of opposition from furniture stores on Queen St. These days the only furniture stores I can think of on Queen are west of Bathurst.

On King a ban on cars only during rush hour may be feasible. I would also accept splitting King in half and making it one-way for two lanes on cars on one side, and a dedicated streetcar line on the other side, if Queen was also a pedestrian mall.

I strongly believe that if any of the proposals which turn part of King or Queen into a pedestrian mall were tested over half a year or more that local businesses would come out in favour. Ford nation will never support such a thing, but their support shouldn't be required.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Still, the biggest issue will be enforcement. No amount of cops will be able to keep it 100% enforced.

If we must have cars on King, enforcement should be done electronically. Have cameras along King street. If they detect a car entering or crossing the streetcar lanes, the driver receives a $400 ticket in the mail.
Click to expand...

When I was in Europe last year, I saw the police just write down the car plate number, time, where and the infraction and a very stiff fine would be delivery to the owner of those plates from what I was told. If you don't pay the fine by X time frame, your plates were suspend until the fine is pay. If caught driving with suspend plates, the car is impounded for X time along with another stiff fine. It various from city to city as well country to country.

The ROW in many cities only have painted lines and boy you better not be caught in that ROW.

The $400 ticket means nothing to a lot of drivers since they can afford it in the first place to the point some will try to write it off as a travel expense.

If Europe can deal with all the deliveries and taxis on major transit route, there is no reason we can't other being weak to try.
 
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