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GASP! SHHHHHH! You're not allowed to have this opinon! No one in Leslieville or the Beaches has a car! Shame on you! You should take your bicycle to Home Depot and load up. Downtown is for people, not cars! :rolleyes:

The real question is: where are people like you when this zoning process is being shoved down our throats?

I live on Jarvis and drive all the way to Eglinton/Warden to go shopping.

According to Pam and Kyle: we don't count.

What kind of shopping? That seems ridiculously out of the way! I live near Parliament Street and if I need to make a big purchase I'll drive to Loblaw's Queen's Quay or the Canadian Tire on Lakeshore. But 99% of the time I just walk everywhere. Maybe I'm missing something, but what does Eg/War have that downtown lacks as far as shopping goes? (Is it 'free parking'?)

I still can't find a reason to support this development. Has anyone EVER seen an appealing SmartCentre development? The one in Burlington looks like a parking lot straight out of Mad Max. They simply do not have a track record for doing things like this well.
 
What kind of shopping? That seems ridiculously out of the way! I live near Parliament Street and if I need to make a big purchase I'll drive to Loblaw's Queen's Quay or the Canadian Tire on Lakeshore. But 99% of the time I just walk everywhere. Maybe I'm missing something, but what does Eg/War have that downtown lacks as far as shopping goes? (Is it 'free parking'?)

I still can't find a reason to support this development. Has anyone EVER seen an appealing SmartCentre development? The one in Burlington looks like a parking lot straight out of Mad Max. They simply do not have a track record for doing things like this well.

There's some "big box" shopping over at Gerrard Square, which has reinvented itself as a boxed indoor mall. Nobody seemed to have a problem with Home Depot or Staples or Winners moving in there, as the Home Depot at Queen and Portland is not seeing much opposition, as that rival big box developer (RioCan) has a better track record, and is proposing something quite urban. There's plenty of alternatives to having to drive to Eglinton and Pharmacy or QEW/427, which I don't get for 90% of the shopping one does.
 
If it's large goods that're awkward to transport, driving might be the best option--in which case, there's always taxis or autoshare services, if need be...
 
Drive to go shopping? Do you want to live downtown? Why not the burbs?

It's shocking, I know, but some people like driving AND living downtown.

I find the more shrill people get about cars and car ownership, the more frivolous my car use gets. I now ONLY drive to Kensington market. In fact, I will take transit HOME to get the car to drive back out to Kensington :p
 
(Not Very) SmartCentre owns this property at St. Clair West and Runnymede, it serves motorists but ignores transit users. There are plenty of automobiles, but very little people:
2699938736_1310bf027f_b.jpg



While the seems close to St. Clair, there is no transit stop here at all. Totally useless:
2699122185_facb15fb37_b.jpg



This corner of the building is the closest to the corner of Runnymede and St. Clair West. There is no entrance at all on this side of the building:
2699122413_f0475e2c27_b.jpg



Do not accept this type of development. This is the corner of Runnymede and St. Clair West, where several bus routes go by. The building totally ignores pedestrians and transit users:
2699939406_4c96037e52_b.jpg
 
What kind of shopping? That seems ridiculously out of the way! I live near Parliament Street and if I need to make a big purchase I'll drive to Loblaw's Queen's Quay or the Canadian Tire on Lakeshore. But 99% of the time I just walk everywhere. Maybe I'm missing something, but what does Eg/War have that downtown lacks as far as shopping goes? (Is it 'free parking'?)

I still can't find a reason to support this development. Has anyone EVER seen an appealing SmartCentre development? The one in Burlington looks like a parking lot straight out of Mad Max. They simply do not have a track record for doing things like this well.

Sometimes we will walk down to the Eaton Center to just browse, but if we need to load up with toiletries, etc., the DVP to Warden/Eglinton on a Sunday is only 15 minutes by car (if the Traffic Gods allow). The Queen's Quay Loblaws is a ripoff. Anyone who shops there could probably BUY a car with what the extra they'd spend there! Canadian Tire is there, across from a huge, new Wal-Mart. Roots clearance center, 3 Rona/Home Depots to choose from, Best Buy, Future Shop, huge Brick furniture place, 2001 Audio/Video - frankly, everything is at Warden/Eglinton. It beats the hell out of Scarborough Town Center and is closer than the box stores that have sprung up across from Sherway Gardens.
Free Parking certainly helps, but it is more to do with the convenience of being able to move from one place to the other.

Has it ever occured to anyone (who knows anything about how the business world works:rolleyes:) that these large retail outlets would rather cater to people with cars because they can carry more goods? How much can you drag on a steetcar? What will your little buggy take?
 
Very little people

Not Very) SmartCentre owns this property at St. Clair West and Runnymede, it serves motorists but ignores transit users. There are plenty of automobiles, but very little people:

Make that virtually no people visible in these pix. Looks like Walmart realized that early on and oriented their building for their customers convenience, you know, those selfish automobile users.
 
Has it ever occured to anyone (who knows anything about how the business world works:rolleyes:) that these large retail outlets would rather cater to people with cars because they can carry more goods? How much can you drag on a steetcar? What will your little buggy take?

One issue here is creating shopping opportunities within the city that do not just cater to the car-driving bulk shopper, with all the land-use consequences that entails (business size, parking space, environmental issues, etc.).

Why should I have to walk 1 or 2 km. to shop for food for the next couple of meals, or to pick up some milk, simply because a huge mega-super-market has effectively shutdown smaller, more easily accessible places closer to me, or makes any such businesses economically infeasible?

We have to ask: whose rights are primary here, the city, or the business plans of large corporations? Which kind of urban development will create city neighbourhoods with the mix of uses and human scale we need? These are choices we can and must make--though when I say things like that, I always hear the cynical retort "Oh, how naive, the idea that you can oppose what people/powers-that-be want..." from people who've evidently always "go with the flow" and accept what happens ("whatever...")--but who exactly is being naive here, if they really want changes in the way land-use planning is done in Toronto and Ontario?

These changes would have come from a revised sharing of authority and responsibility for planning decisions.

For instance, imagine that the land at, and adjacent to, 629 Eastern, had been remediated to provincial residential standards and that something like the original mixed-use development proposed in 2003-5 had gone forward: then the city would have had to address the question of how and whether they could prevent adjacent tracts from undergoing a quick, lucrative development into a sea of condos (or "lofts" as the trendies call them), abandoning any pretence of mixed-use.

Clearly each and every city requirement for serious mixed-use (and the proportions of that mixed-use) set on other developers would have generated an appeal to the OMB, unless and until the city could make thorough development decisions that are responsible *in the eyes of all the parties involved*, and that would have stuck, without regard to being dragged in front of the OMB for the final decision.

In that context of authority and decision-making responsibility diffused over two levels of government, the baffling decision by the city in 2005 to refuse mixed-use development at 629 Eastern becomes a little more understandable, but even so hardly acceptable. The subsequent events--the Rose Corp., having sold a half-interest in the land to Smartcentres (who would become the primary development agent), prevailed upon the OMB/province to "grandfather" the original OMB appeal for these new owners and their entirely new proposed development--is even less acceptable.

No, the proposed development at 629 Eastern repudiates any kind of sensible land-use planning in the public interest, and it will show a city and province incapable of making the necessary decisions.
 
Pining for the mixed-use proposal from '05??

One issue here is creating shopping opportunities within the city that do not just cater to the car-driving bulk shopper, with all the land-use consequences that entails (business size, parking space, environmental issues, etc.).

Why should I have to walk 1 or 2 km. to shop for food for the next couple of meals, or to pick up some milk, simply because a huge mega-super-market has effectively shutdown smaller, more easily accessible places closer to me, or makes any such businesses economically infeasible?

We have to ask: whose rights are primary here, the city, or the business plans of large corporations? Which kind of urban development will create city neighbourhoods with the mix of uses and human scale we need? These are choices we can and must make--though when I say things like that, I always hear the cynical retort "Oh, how naive, the idea that you can oppose what people/powers-that-be want..." from people who've evidently always "go with the flow" and accept what happens ("whatever...")--but who exactly is being naive here, if they really want changes in the way land-use planning is done in Toronto and Ontario?

These changes would have come from a revised sharing of authority and responsibility for planning decisions.

For instance, imagine that the land at, and adjacent to, 629 Eastern, had been remediated to provincial residential standards and that something like the original mixed-use development proposed in 2003-5 had gone forward: then the city would have had to address the question of how and whether they could prevent adjacent tracts from undergoing a quick, lucrative development into a sea of condos (or "lofts" as the trendies call them), abandoning any pretence of mixed-use.

Clearly each and every city requirement for serious mixed-use (and the proportions of that mixed-use) set on other developers would have generated an appeal to the OMB, unless and until the city could make thorough development decisions that are responsible *in the eyes of all the parties involved*, and that would have stuck, without regard to being dragged in front of the OMB for the final decision.

In that context of authority and decision-making responsibility diffused over two levels of government, the baffling decision by the city in 2005 to refuse mixed-use development at 629 Eastern becomes a little more understandable, but even so hardly acceptable. The subsequent events--the Rose Corp., having sold a half-interest in the land to Smartcentres (who would become the primary development agent), prevailed upon the OMB/province to "grandfather" the original OMB appeal for these new owners and their entirely new proposed development--is even less acceptable.

No, the proposed development at 629 Eastern repudiates any kind of sensible land-use planning in the public interest, and it will show a city and province incapable of making the necessary decisions.

If I remember correctly, that proposal was shut down by protests b/c it wasn't going to be a Film Studio. So the current protesters (assuming it was approximately the same bunch) are reaping their whirlwind.

What little shops are going to close b/c you don't go for milk there anymore -- Loblaw's? Price Chopper? No Frills? C'mon -- there's a ton of competition for corner shops now, and they survive as they always have -- ciggies, dirty mags, and potato chips.

I do like the mandated shade in the parking lots idea above -- that would go a long ways toward making the project easier on the eyes, if nothing else.
 
If I remember correctly, that proposal was shut down by protests b/c it wasn't going to be a Film Studio. So the current protesters (assuming it was approximately the same bunch) are reaping their whirlwind.

I think the film industry crowd was an early opponent to the original proposal--the whole controversy sometimes sounded like the conflicting ambitions of all the local film studios were the major players.

What little shops are going to close b/c you don't go for milk there anymore -- Loblaw's? Price Chopper? No Frills? C'mon -- there's a ton of competition for corner shops now, and they survive as they always have -- ciggies, dirty mags, and potato chips.

No, I wasn't referring to corner stores (I tend to buy milk at the supermarket anyway), I just want less massively car-oriented shopping dominating the area, particularly for food shopping. Less segregation of function: Queen East should not just devolve into galleries and restarants/bars as it gets wealthier (of course, this being Queen E., with the existing commercial building stock, the limits on 'wealthier" are pretty obvious!).

I do like the mandated shade in the parking lots idea above -- that would go a long ways toward making the project easier on the eyes, if nothing else.

Exactly, the suggestions posted above make sense if the project goes forward, but the real issue remains: is this kind of deal-by-deal haggling really an adequate form of planning? Does it get us a healthier city in employment, business, and environmental terms, i.e. the long term public interest as opposed to quickly developing an area in which the market suddenly finds an interest?

I readily concede that I just don't accept the general premise that the market interest trumps all the others, its triumph is "inevitable" (given the way the usual suspects--the OMB, NIMBYists, etc.--behave), so to most people my objections are just so much hot air, I'm on another planet.
 
Make that virtually no people visible in these pix. Looks like Walmart realized that early on and oriented their building for their customers convenience, you know, those selfish automobile users.

Exactly! You MUST use an automobile to use that Wal-Mart. It's worse in the 905 of course, where you have to use an automobile for everything. Toronto wants new development to be transit oriented, not automobile oriented, and developments like the Studio District Proposal goes against that.
 
Why MUST anyone use an automobile?

Exactly! You MUST use an automobile to use that Wal-Mart. It's worse in the 905 of course, where you have to use an automobile for everything. Toronto wants new development to be transit oriented, not automobile oriented, and developments like the Studio District Proposal goes against that.

W.K. Lis said that several bus routes served this intersection, are transit riders not allowed to shop here? How more transit oriented could this project possibly be?
 
W.K. Lis said that several bus routes served this intersection, are transit riders not allowed to shop here? How more transit oriented could this project possibly be?

St. Clair is to be extended from Gunns Road to Jane Street, according to the Transit City. So a transit stop (either underground or on the surface) at Runnymede will be even more transit oriented at this location, but (not very) SmartCentre built it so it is not. Which means that the Studio District, which is also proposed by (not very) SmartCentre has very little aspiration to make it transit oriented as well, based on their past.

(I wonder if this web site is firewalled in China?)
 
St. Clair is to be extended from Gunns Road to Jane Street, according to the Transit City. So a transit stop (either underground or on the surface) at Runnymede will be even more transit oriented at this location, but (not very) SmartCentre built it so it is not. Which means that the Studio District, which is also proposed by (not very) SmartCentre has very little aspiration to make it transit oriented as well, based on their past.

(I wonder if this web site is firewalled in China?)

A couple things:

1) You're using a pretty old format Smart Centre, in a run-down neighbourhood, as an example of what they're capable of. As ridiculous as it is, the SmartCentre at Eg and Laird is a major improvement over what you're showing - and what they've been suggesting for Leslieville is a major, major improvement over even that.

2) The Walmart actually has a covered promenade to bring pedestrians around to the front of the store - that's hardly cruel and insensitive.

3) You (incorrectly) assume that these cheap big-box stores are anything approaching permanent. They're not. They can easily be reworked to interact with the street, rather than their parking lots. In the meantime though, why face a dead street when all your customers arrive in cars?

Build transit that people want to use, and people will use it, and businesses will respond.
 

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