[AlvinofDiaspar]

Dicotomy:

If you think 5 years later Toronto will become like Hong Kong such that only those from the latter will enjoy the city, you clearly haven't been here.

Or isn't very familiar with development patterns and the scale of existing land uses in Toronto, on that matter.

AoD

 

[Dichotomy]

Dicotomy:

If you think 5 years later Toronto will become like Hong Kong such that only those from the latter will enjoy the city, you clearly haven't been here.

Or isn't very familiar with development patterns and the scale of existing land uses in Toronto, on that matter.

AoD

1. The big holes in the ground that are so loved on this Board will all be built and occupied within 5 years. How those newcomers choose to navigate the city is going to affect us all.
2. The report on tearing down the end of the Gardiner will be turned in. It's (forgone) conclusion will be known. People's opinions and concerns today are going to effect that outcome - and the next election.
3. The perfect storm of job losses, economic downturn and real estate downturn (if any) will either be just immediately over or still in process. Either way, the city's reaction to those events will affect whether more businesses defect or stay.
4. Any action with respect to the Spadina subway extension, Eglinton LRT, etc. will either be well underway, shelves or still undergoing interminable debate. These are events that should have already been done five years AGO, not still in process.

To be sure, this is an organic process, but the cancer set in 10 or 15 years ago. What the doctor orders in the next 5 years is going to be crucial to the city's very survival.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Dicotomy:

You didn't answer the question. On what basis do you equate Toronto to Hong Kong such that only individuals from the latter will enjoy the city?

AoD

 

[Dichotomy]

Dicotomy:

You didn't answer the question. On what basis do you equate Toronto to Hong Kong such that only individuals from the latter will enjoy the city?

AoD

They are used to living in 500 sq ft boxes. We aren't. They love staring into their neighbor's windows at night. We shouldn't have to. They don't mind never seeing the sunlight, except in a park.

I have stated many times that there is nothing wrong with 30-40-50 story condos. Luv'em. But the 'infilling' projects that are being done in the core are a sad lot, IMO. Have you ever walked in the alley behind where Verve is at night when the 30 or so a/c units form that 5 story stacked condo was shoe-horned in behind the Catholic church? Nice racket. Now the Verve towns and the 500 Sherbourne towns are giong to completely wall in that alley - it's not even a bona fide street.

Let's look at it this way: 20 years ago, tall buildings were deemed bad and an arbitrary height restriction was slapped in place. That was the thinking of the day. Now, we are told tall is good so buildings are being shoved into any tiny lot that can be found: tall or not.

The question is this: what do we do in 20 years when someone else comes along and points out that this was a mistake? No subways have been built, the Gardiner is torn down, Lakeshore Rd is in gridlock at 9 pm..

Who but citizens of Hong Kong will appreciate this? (Mind you, in all fairness to Hong Kong, they are not adverse to mega-transportation projects, which we seem to be.)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Dicotomy:

They are used to living in 500 sq ft boxes. We aren't. They love staring into their neighbor's windows at night. We shouldn't have to. They don't mind never seeing the sunlight, except in a park.

Beyond the obvious stereotyping - Who is this "we" we are talking about? Plenty of people make these 500ft boxes homes voluntarily - certainly, they are not your "we".

I have stated many times that there is nothing wrong with 30-40-50 story condos. Luv'em. But the 'infilling' projects that are being done in the core are a sad lot, IMO. Have you ever walked in the alley behind where Verve is at night when the 30 or so a/c units form that 5 story stacked condo was shoe-horned in behind the Catholic church? Nice racket. Now the Verve towns and the 500 Sherbourne towns are giong to completely wall in that alley - it's not even a bona fide street.

Need I remind you, even assuming that your assertion that such a form of development is very "Hong Kong" is true, (which it isn't necessarily - considering the predominant style of property development there is razing existing urban fabric and replacing it with megacomplexes and/or starting from stretch), downtown development does not equate to "Toronto" as a whole - far from it, in fact.

And so what if an alleyway get walled in - plenty of them in plenty of cities, including Toronto, did.

Let's look at it this way: 20 years ago, tall buildings were deemed bad and an arbitrary height restriction was slapped in place. That was the thinking of the day. Now, we are told tall is good so buildings are being shoved into any tiny lot that can be found: tall or not.

So? The former did not prove to be a disaster, the latter (which you presented as an exaggeration, I might add) hasn't proven to be so either.

The question is this: what do we do in 20 years when someone else comes along and points out that this was a mistake? No subways have been built, the Gardiner is torn down, Lakeshore Rd is in gridlock at 9 pm.

Well, what happens if 20 years later and it turned out to be just fine? And need I remind you, you have turned enough threads into your own little one trick pony lately?

Who but citizens of Hong Kong will appreciate this? (Mind you, in all fairness to Hong Kong, they are not adverse to mega-transportation projects, which we seem to be.)

Since you failed to make the case that what's happen in Toronto (within the core and beyond the core) resembles that of Hong Kong, much less knowing what the psyche of those living in Hong Kong is, I would suggest that you should keep to what you do know.

AoD

 

[Alley Kat]

Welcome Home!

I hope we can now carry on with the SmartCentre proposal discussion.

How about the new bike path on Eastern? With restricted access via Eastern, and parklands impeding access from Lakeshore, I guess they'll have to revise the plans to include a heliport.

.

 

[Alley Kat]

http://www.torontolife.com/features/resistance-futile/?pageno=1

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE

Like it or not, big-box chains are migrating downtown. Instead of mounting protests, urbanites should embrace the monster-retail movement By Philip Preville

A 10-minute drive from the financial district and two minutes south of trendy Queen Street East, there’s an urban pocket crying out for redevelopment. Ever since the eastern leg of the Gardiner Expressway—which ran from the DVP to Leslie—was torn down in 2001 at a cost of $34 million, we’ve neglected the industrial landscape that was left behind. As a result, the streets of Leslieville all end at Eastern Avenue, where a couple of kilometre-long “super-blocks†keep the neighbourhood cordoned off from the waterfront. Some 70,000 cars a day use Eastern and Lake Shore as express routes; they remain forbidding to anyone on two feet or two wheels. Surely this is not what we tore down the Gardiner for.

In the heart of the super-blocks, where a tannery and an ironworks factory once stood, lies Toronto Film Studios, a 12-acre complex that for almost two decades has served as the primary production facility for the city’s film and television industry. It’s one of the reasons the neighbourhood was branded the Studio District. The complex is scheduled to close at the end of the year, when business will shift a kilometre southwest to the much-bally hooed mega-studio called Filmport. In its place, the landowner has proposed building a SmartCentre, the first big-box retail outlet to infiltrate downtown. Opposition to the proposal has been fierce, and in this battle, the city has become the tragic protagonist in a parable whose moral is “be careful what you wish for.â€

According to the city’s official plan, the area is one of only two remaining “employment districts†within the boundaries of the old city of Toronto, meaning that the area is reserved for industry. The other is Liberty Village, where large swaths of land have already been converted to homes and condos. The city, anxious about the declining number of jobs in the core and fearing downtown could become a bedroom community if companies continue to set up shop in the suburbs, insisted upon zero-residential, 100 per cent employment zoning in south Riverdale—which is exactly what SmartCentres is offering.

Tentatively called the Foundry District, Smart Centres’ proposal—a retail complex with 700,000 square feet of commercial space and 1,800 parking spaces—has become the latest hot-button development to go before the Ontario Municipal Board. Fighting the developers are the city, local councillor Paula Fletcher, and a highly motivated residents group, the East Toronto Community Coalition. Barring the advent of a mutual settlement—unlikely, but always a possibility—the OMB hearings will wrap up this month and a decision should be handed down before the year’s end. The fight is yet another grenade lob in that hoary trench war: the city of neighbourhoods versus the city for cars. But it’s also a Freudian psychological conflict on a massive scale, one that exposes a city-wide hypocrisy. Our civic superego tells us to tear down expressways, take transit, walk and cycle more, and otherwise reform and redirect our behaviour in pursuit of the ideal livable, green, healthy city. Meanwhile, deep in our repressed id, we are still running errands in our cars. Though we don’t like to admit it, the majority of us are big-box shoppers.

Mitchell Goldhar is a thin, bespectacled 47-year-old, born, raised, and still residing in North York. He’s the sole proprietor of SmartCentres, Canada’s most ambitious and successful retail developer, with nearly 200 single-storey, low-density big-box shopping centres built or in development across the country. No company in Ontario is better at shepherding a development application through the approvals process: SmartCentres’ projects are often hotly contested, since they usually feature Wal-Mart as their anchor tenant.

Goldhar, who teaches a course in real estate development at the Rotman School of Management, built his first shopping centre in Barrie 15 years ago and hasn’t stopped since. He owns an RV, which he takes on long road trips to scout new locations. It has been a successful research strategy: in 2007, Canadian Business ranked Goldhar at number 48 on its list of the 100 wealthiest Canadians, with a net worth of approximately $1.13 billion.

Though there are 12 SmartCentres in Toronto, none are located within the boundaries of the old city (the nearest is on Laird just south of Eglinton), and Goldhar happened upon the Studio District lands more by luck than by design. The site’s owner, Sam Reisman, runs Rose Corporation, whose diverse real estate holdings include the Elora Mill Inn and Muskoka’s Hidden Valley Resort. He’s also an investor in the new Filmport studios. In 2004, working with well-regarded urban planning consultant Ken Greenberg, Reisman put forward a proposal to break up the super-block between Carlaw and Leslie by extending the streets of Leslieville through to Lake Shore and retaining some of the tannery buildings. It featured a mix of residential and commercial spaces, including condo towers up to 14 storeys high, a hotel and 400,000 square feet of retail. Though it was well-received at first, says Reisman, “late in the game, the city had a change of heart.†Frustrated, he decided he needed a partner more adept at dealing with city hall. He called Goldhar.

SmartCentres paid $14 million for a 50 per cent stake in the 18.5-acre site. The Foundry District has since been derided as a suburban construct, anathema to a city that prioritizes pedestrians, cyclists and transit users over motorists. Along Queen East, signs in storefront windows proclaim “No Big Box in Leslieville.†They might as well proclaim No Big Box Anywhere Near Downtown. Goldhar is familiar with the critique, and his reply is gentle but firm: “Shopprs create retail concepts. If people are ready to change the way they shop, retailers and developers will oblige.â€

 

[Alley Kat]

(cont'd)

Resistance Is Futile - Page 3October 2008

It has become fashionable to predict that people are ready to change: with oil prices projected to rise north of $200 a barrel, it will soon be too expensive to make frivolous car trips to suburban malls. Goldhar has bad news for anyone who believes that peak oil will kill the big box: he doesn’t see the price of gas threatening his business model any time soon. When people decide to cut down on car use, it’s the daily commute that’s most vulnerable (witness the recent dramatic increases in bicycle commuting). Taking transit to and from the office can drastically cut gas consumption. People save money and then use the car for personal trips and errands.

But there’s more to big-box shopping than the convenience of cars. There are social reasons, too. Imagine yourself at the back of a crowded streetcar with armfuls of diapers and toilet paper: it’s not only impractical, it’s embarrassing. But the main reason we drive to big boxes is because they’re cheap. And everybody likes a bargain. One observer I spoke with said she frequently runs into her downtown colleagues at Costco on weekends. And the SmartCentre on Laird is filled with expensive cars from neighbouring Leaside, driven by people who no doubt profess to do all their shopping on Bayview. Goldhar believes that all Canadians are value shoppers, and he points to the mix of stores on the upscale stretch of Bloor in Yorkville as proof. “Our Fifth Avenue has both a Holt Renfrew and a Winners, which is the deepest-discount fashion retailer in North America,†he says. “And wealthy people shop in both places.â€

The market study commissioned by SmartCentres for its proposal found that the city’s east end lacks department stores (the original big boxes), and the majority of Leslieville residents do their big shops downtown and in Scarborough. “The farther people drive,†Goldhar says, “the more they’ll buy on that trip.†He believes that a SmartCentre in Leslieville will keep people in the neighbourhood, which will ultimately bene fit other local retailers.

When Home Depot announced plans to locate within a condominium complex on Queen West, people wondered if the suburbanization of downtown was upon us. But really, all it means is that downtown dwellers who want to shop at Home Depot won’t drive as far as they used to, and maybe Home Depot customers will spill over onto Queen. Similarly, Goldhar believes his SmartCentre will anchor a commercial avenue in Leslieville. His proposal is unusual for the company: plans include a second storey, possibly a third, and storefronts that face city streets instead of a parking lot. The complex may or may not include a Wal-Mart: the company has not yet decided whether to locate there, though SmartCentres hopes to lure them as their main tenant. “We want this to be a place that people will walk to,†says Goldhar. And drive to. The traffic capacity along Lake Shore and Eastern makes the area amenable to large retailers. Just last year, a 70,000-square-foot Canadian Tire opened at Lake Shore and Leslie, kitty-corner to a pre-existing 60,000-square-foot Lob laws. The Foundry District will serve not only Leslieville, Riverdale, the Beach and southwestern Scarborough, but also the Waterfront Toronto developments in the West Don Lands and East Bayfront, where 12,000 new residential units are expected to rise in the next 15 years.

City hall has taken to splitting hairs in Leslieville: it wants jobs on those lands, but not retail jobs. Rather, it wants to turn Eastern Avenue into a “business campus†stocked with information technology and new-media jobs. Think of it as a downtown “satellite†housing a specific industrial cluster, similar to the hospital district at College and University, with its thriving medical-research industry. As strategies go, it’s good, but generic; like all cities in the thrall of Richard Florida’s urban development theories, Toronto wants creative- industry jobs everywhere, including Liberty Village, the West Don Lands and East Bayfront. But it’s also a pie in the sky: the city has no offers from large companies to locate on Eastern. They argue that it takes longer to attract these types of jobs, which is true, and it’s the kind of logic that drives developers bananas: from their point of view, the city is essentially delaying any return on their investment until they are old and grey or quite possibly dead. Still, Kyle Benham, the city’s former director of economic development, who authored the strategy, sums it up thusly: “Retail makes great icing on the employment cake, but it shouldn’t be the cake.â€

Paula Fletcher has a more specific idea: she says the area should remain a film production hub, and warns that the disappearance of the Toronto Film Studios will mark the end of the Studio District. “Filmport is for big productions, the major Hollywood blockbusters,†she says. “The Toronto Film Studios are for smaller, start-up productions that can’t afford Filmport. You need a mixture of different studio sizes and prices to keep the industry healthy.†The argument has two fatal weaknesses. The first is Sam Reisman, Toronto Film Studios’ owner. “The health of the film industry in this part of town remains in my self-interest,†he says. “If it made sense to keep the studios operating, I’d have done it.†Second, the city has no right to restrict land use so narrowly. When pressed on the latter issue, Fletcher relents: “You can’t tell Sam and Mitch to put a studio on their land, but you can tell them not to put a big box on it.â€

Goldhar thinks the city’s arguments are illogical and possibly counterproductive. “If you think that by limiting the lands available for retail, someone will build a manufacturing plant on them instead, you’re mistaken.†Though the vision of a downtown satellite is appealing, to make it happen, city hall has to take a strong leadership role, articulating a plan and getting developers like Reisman onside early. Instead, they’ve spent the past five years merely reacting to his proposals, and at this point all he can do is laugh. “The city can’t tell me what it wants,†he says. “It only knows what it doesn’t want. And by insisting upon these very restrictive land-use categories, the city has boxed itself in. Pun intended.â€

What is the retail strategy for a walkable, livable, healthy city? How are residents expected to purchase their regular needs on foot, bike and bus? The answer is beginning to emerge on shopping avenues throughout the city, and it’s far from ideal. In Leslieville, residents can now get off the streetcar at Queen and Logan and stop in at the new upmarket bakery or butcher shop. Similar shops opened this summer on Danforth near Broadview. The locations are convenient, the routine—first butcher, then baker—is quaintly Victorian, and the groceries are excellent. Too bad they’re prohibitively expensive. The price differential on ground beef alone is enough to put anyone behind the wheel in search of a large chain store. Waterfront Toronto’s retail strategy calls for a mix of restaurants, cafés, boutiques and galleries. It doesn’t address how residents might provision their homes and feed their families affordably.

Instead of trying to keep the downtown big box free, we’d be better off figuring out how to make large-format retail compatible with a mostly walkable, constantly improving, ever-greening city in which many people still shop in their cars. The Foundry District proposal, seen in plain light, is just one way of bridging this gap. It’s not perfect. One of the two parking lots, a triple-decker, will be visible from Lake Shore. The area could handle greater density: a taller complex with offices above the retail space would make it more compatible with the city’s satellite idea. Nevertheless, the development will likely be an improvement over the area’s existing retail: the Canadian Tire outlet offers a lesson in how to build an unappealing sidewalk, while the Loblaws is just plain ugly. As an example of a more acceptable model, Paula Fletcher points to the Canadian Tire at Bay and Dundas, which has Ryerson classrooms and corporate offices above it. Then she quickly returns to her line in the sand: “I still don’t think it belongs in the Studio District.â€

But in the absence of an alternative retail strategy, it has to go somewhere. As Goldhar puts it, “I see lots of condos being approved downtown, but I don’ see anyone selling weekly needs at sharp prices.†Unless our vision of a walkable, livable city is one where we bankrupt ourselves shopping on foot at overpriced convenience stores and upscale grocery boutiques, we’re going to have to rethink the big box.

 

[Alley Kat]

Apparently both sides were interviewed for this article. It's amply apparent that Toronto Life is eagerly anticipating advertising revenue from stores located in Mitch Goldhar's malls and this article is a complete sell out for the "gold" in Goldhar.

Toronto: 0

Toronto Life: 100

 

[TKTKTK]

It's amply apparent that Toronto Life is eagerly anticipating advertising revenue from stores located in Mitch Goldhar's malls and this article is a complete sell out for the "gold" in Goldhar.

That isn't how magazines work. Toronto Life's editorial team, or their free lance writers, couldn't give a rat's ass about buttering up not-yet-existing advertisers. In fact, like most magazines, I'll bet they abhor their ad-sales team.

 

[Alley Kat]

That isn't how magazines work.

Assuming one acknowledges that the article is absolutely weighted toward SmartCentres, how else could it serve a bland tabloid such as Toronto Life to take such a blatantly political stand other than to endear itself on some level to Mitch Goldhar et al, when this issue is still before the OMB, and decision time is nigh?

 

[TKTKTK]

Assuming one acknowledges that the article is absolutely weighted toward SmartCentres, how else could it serve a bland tabloid such as Toronto Life to take such a blatantly political stand other than to endear itself on some level to Mitch Goldhar et al, when this issue is still before the OMB, and decision time is nigh?

Because that isn't actually how the media works, that's how conspiracy theories work.

The author isn't the only Torontonian to come forward and shrug off all the hoopla. Is everyone who isn't against SmartCentres in the back pocket of Goldhar? Or just everyone not wearing a tin-foil hat?

 

[Alley Kat]

Apparently both sides were interviewed for this article.

Because that isn't actually how the media works, that's how conspiracy theories work.

My comments are based on the misrepresentations given by Toronto Life to those who oppose SmartCentres that this was to have been an objective journalistic exercise, not a SmartCentres love-in. Bottom line, no harm done as I doubt Toronto Life's readership questions much of anything anyway and would be expecting its monthly dose of status quo drivel, such as, "But there’s more to big-box shopping than the convenience of cars. There are social reasons, too. Imagine yourself at the back of a crowded streetcar with armfuls of diapers and toilet paper: it’s not only impractical, it’s embarrassing."

 

[Dichotomy]

Build it, don't build it - doesn't matter to me. With the mess Eastern Ave. has become and the Gardiner stump, it's easier to drive up the DVP to the Smart Centers at Eglinton/Warden. They have a huge Wal-Mart, Canadian Tire, etc. Even taking the Gardiner to Sherway Gardens with all their new big box stores on the north side of Queensway is fairly convenient.
If the residents of Leslieville want to buy diapers at the local grocer, let them.
Those who hate cars don't get it, and those who have cars will continue to drive where ever it's convenient.

I predict that if Smart Centers wins (and I suspect they will), the parking lot will be full. And guess what - the sky won't fall.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Rose Corps. original vision

I really liked it when it was put out there. It would have been a much better use of this chunk of Toronto -- linking through roads, lots of new residential and retail. That was the missed opportunity, IMHO. They reference it a little bit in this article, but don't really dig into how the project would have gone. The mock-ups I saw way back when looked really, really good.

Dichotomy -- you just keep on truckin', mon. Why in God's name you would drive 30+ mins to subject yourself to big boxes is beyond me, but to each his own. Having seen the unbelievable ugliness that is Eglinton/Warden, you're welcome to it.