[paraone]

Gerrard Square was a mistake that we are still paying for, it killed that strip of retail that was quite vibrant in the early 70's, maybe it was a bit gritty but what it could have been is lost forever.

As for the streetcar VS the car, I can see where Admiral Beez is coming from, for my wife and I to take the streetcar to the eaton centre, it costs us $11.00 and take about 15-20 min. each way with the stroller in tow. If we drive it take 5 minutes and cost about $6.00 to park and we don't have to struggle with the stroller through those stupid divider bars and the steps of the streetcar.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE supporter of transit, what I'd love to see is the style that SF has. $3.00 for the fare with transfers good in any direction for upto 3 hours. Truly convenient, if you need to make another stop along the way you don't have to pay $2.50 for the pleasure. and yeas I do know about Family passes, however if you don't live near a station good luck, costs $2.50 a person just to get to the station to buy the pass.

As far as the smart centre is concerned, I say leave the burbs in the burbs. If this wasn't going to be a bunch of big box stores with faux-entrances facing the street with a traffic choked parking lot eating up 5 acres, maybe I'd go for it. We need a "new" plan for these urban areas. I'm not opposed to the stores themselves, I'm opposed to the whole guise of "it's not a big box store, just look at the fancy stucco entrances" that will surely be locked from the street making the parking lot the true entrance.

Bury the parking, face the street, and make it truly mixed use and I'd be all for it

 

[TOinTO]

I believe a city can have both walkability with local shops as well as useable roads for private auto use.

I think we can too. But if our priority is free parking and the cheapest retail format possible, walkability will loose out.

I would argue that walkability is loosing out in the city. We don't seem to be able to create walkable areas anymore. Where we have piecemeal redevelopment of small lots, things turn out ok. But when a large area is redeveloped, it tends to be built on a scale that is really suited for cars.

The thing is, the Smart Centre will be a local shopping area, usable for transit, walkers and car drivers. Are we calling for the closure of Gerrard Square Mall, located less than 2 km from Leslieville, because they offer free parking and have a Home Depot that's competiting with local or less successful hardware shops?

Have you ever seen a Smart Centre that you could call walkable? These things seem to be designed to discourage you from walking between the stores, let alone walking to and from the mall. And have you seen a Smart Centre that made an attempt to welcome transit users? From what I have seen the stores have their backs to the street and to the bus stops.

Do you really think the one in Leslieville will any be different once the OMB squashes the city's zoning objections?

I'm not a fan of Gerrard Square. I wouldn't be in favour building it if it wasn't there. But Smart Centres are much worse in terms space wasted on surface parking and the crassness of the whole scheme.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Gerrard Square/SmartCentre

Have you ever seen a Smart Centre that you could call walkable? These things seem to be designed to discourage you from walking between the stores, let alone walking to and from the mall. And have you seen a Smart Centre that made an attempt to welcome transit users? From what I have seen the stores have their backs to the street and to the bus stops.

Do you really think the one in Leslieville will any be different once the OMB squashes the city's zoning objections?

I'm not a fan of Gerrard Square. I wouldn't be in favour building it if it wasn't there. But Smart Centres are much worse in terms space wasted on surface parking and the crassness of the whole scheme.

<start rant> On SmartCentre: The real issue, IMO, is what is being replaced and the overall context. The Laird SmartCentre was built on an empty lot, that had been a razed industrial building, and is unequivocally in the Leaside industrial area, not the neighbourhood. It most definitely turns its back on the streets to the north and south, but since those are also industrial thoroughfares and the (relatively) welcoming front entrance faces Laird and Leaside, who cares? It's a pretty good example of how to build big retail. Not better nor worse than putting an enclosed mall on the same site, and a much better use of the land than a toxic factory of some kind. You can argue that 'high quality jobs' were lost -- except it used to be a friggin' empty lot. Leslieville is only slightly different. Half the site is an empty lot, and the other half has been replaced and upgraded (in the opinion of the owners) with their new digs at FilmPort. So, retail is, arguably, an upgrade from empty, again. If someone has a better idea, they sure as hell haven't stepped up, have they?

On Gerrard Square: With the complete renovation, this little mall is now a pretty good plus for the neighbourhood. It blocks the train tracks, provides a decent shopping experience, and is right on the streetcar line for those who wish to use transit. Many, many malls are much, much worse. I was not here in the '70s, but I believe the sepia-toned memories might be a little hazy... this was considered one of the crappiest and lowest income parts of town. I refuse to believe the shopping was so great that we should be going back to those halcyon days.

Back to the SmartCentre: the 'walkability' factor is a red herring. Where are you walking from? The Beach? The site is south of Eastern, so no one north of Dundas even would attempt to walk there, for any reason whatsoever that involves work/shopping/recreation. Everything south of the site is arterial road, industrial land, and parks. So -- say you're building a new 'high paying jobs' site (e.g. Urbancorp's redo of the Brinks site). What do you do? Build surface parking so that everyone can get to work. The Leslieville Queen Street strip will do just fine with a Smart Centre on Eastern for the same reason it does now: it is a great walking strip for poking around stores, having a meal, socializing. But you can't expect walkability when you're buying 15 sheets of drywall. <end rant>

 

[Urban Shocker]

There's a huge Dollar Store on the second floor of Poverty Square. I couldn't believe how many items could be sold at a profit for so little.

When I lived in St. James Town in '77 we took the TTC to shop at the supermarket in the Square - just to see the fancy check-outs that scanned bar codes. So the shopping was kinda great ...

 

[paraone]

On Gerrard Square: With the complete renovation, this little mall is now a pretty good plus for the neighbourhood. It blocks the train tracks, provides a decent shopping experience, and is right on the streetcar line for those who wish to use transit. Many, many malls are much, much worse. I was not here in the '70s, but I believe the sepia-toned memories might be a little hazy... this was considered one of the crappiest and lowest income parts of town. I refuse to believe the shopping was so great that we should be going back to those halcyon days.

I think you miss understood, I never said it was a mecca of shopping back then, but the strip that Gerrard Square replaced was much like the strip a little further east and the tiny strip on the west, which have great potential. Vibrant doesn't mean gentrified. If the square hadn't been built, we may have had a much better street than we have now. And it was far from the crappiest area of the city. It was much like Queen/Broadview was about 10 years ago, a diamond in the rough.

the 'walkability' factor is a red herring. Where are you walking from? The Beach? The site is south of Eastern, so no one north of Dundas even would attempt to walk there, for any reason whatsoever that involves work/shopping/recreation.

I live north of Dundas and I walked to the Jumbo(before it moved) all the time. My father also makes the trek down to the loblaws on occasion from withrow park when he needs something that the local grocer doesn't have. Thats quite the suburban attitude there, people around these parts walk great distances because the nabe is built to the pedestrian, this smart centre contradicts that notion.

 

[digi]

Poverty Square

 

[Urban Shocker]

That's what Tim Clarke, my Re-Max real estate agent, called it when I bought a little house near there in 1990 - and it still seems to apply.

 

[digi]

How wonderfully condecending of you.

 

[Urban Shocker]

I've been shopping there for bargoons since 1977.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Walking to shop

I live north of Dundas and I walked to the Jumbo(before it moved) all the time. My father also makes the trek down to the loblaws on occasion from withrow park when he needs something that the local grocer doesn't have. Thats quite the suburban attitude there, people around these parts walk great distances because the nabe is built to the pedestrian, this smart centre contradicts that notion.

Walking from Dundas to Eastern along Leslie is not a huge hike for a video. It is a huge hike for a full Loblaws shopping mission, or the kinds of things you'd buy at Home Depot. That's not a suburban attitude. It's reality.

As for your father... might I suggest that he walks down to experience the joy of shopping with you? Because, otherwise, he walks away from the (closer) IGA and Sun Valley, away from the Fruit King and its new rival at Logan and Danforth, past the Chinese green grocers on Gerrard, past one of the (IMHO) best stocked No Frills in town, and even past the big grocer in Gerrard Square. So, if your father is walking to Loblaw's from Withrow Park to shop due to loyalty to Galen Weston or to get some air, fabulous. But, otherwise, he's... inefficient in his shopping habits.

... or possibly you're taking the piss to try and prove a point...

 

[W. K. Lis]

I use something that my parent's used when they went to Loblaws to shop: a shopping cart.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I use something that my parent's used when they went to Loblaws to shop: a shopping cart.

Oh yeah, that'll work for my monthly grocery trip for my family of four and four pets. My kids alone could eat the fill of one of your bag-lady carts in a week.

 

[paraone]

Walking from Dundas to Eastern along Leslie is not a huge hike for a video. It is a huge hike for a full Loblaws shopping mission, or the kinds of things you'd buy at Home Depot. That's not a suburban attitude. It's reality.

Well it is a hike because I live at Broadview/Dundas, but still an enjoyable walk.

As for my father maybe you missed the line of.... "when he needs something that the local grocer doesn't have."

I shop at the No Frills all the time and still have to make another trip to a larger store for some specialty items. Some time it's Loblaws at Leslie, or maybe a stroll to Solbey's on Broadview.

 

[paraone]

Oh yeah, that'll work for my monthly grocery trip for my family of four and four pets. My kids alone could eat the fill of one of your bag-lady carts in a week.

Grew up with 7 people in our family, Mom&Dad, 5 kids. All our groceries were brought home in those bag-lady carts. May I suggest breaking your monthly groceries into weekly groceries, I find that I don't buy nearly the crap that I used to when I did huge shopping treks. Now we buy the staples once a week, then grab the small stuff as it's needed from the local grocer. I find it's a nice walk with my kids and we don't waste nearly as much food that gets forgotten in the back of the fridge.

 

[Admiral Beez]

This thread has somehow morphed into barrage of "you shoulds...". You should walk to grocer, you should move to the 'burbs if you want to drive, you should get a bundle'buggy (we have one, BTW - near useless in winter), you should take TTC. What has taken over these people?

How about we skip the you shoulds, and instead focus on "I recommend" or "suggest", or "in my experience". Let's stop the finger wagging.