[paraone]

it morphed out of claims that one could not get the everyday things in life without getting into a car and going to a big box store in suburbia, so we should bring suburbia to us. Then the discussions of what one can and can't with out a car came into the mix, maybe the wording should have been a bit more inclusive.

Either way down with smart centres and the sea of parking.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Either way down with smart centres and the sea of parking.

In the end the market and the OMB will decide what goes there. I guarantee you, the market will support it through their shopping.

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

I agree, the market will dictate as well it should.

As for the "you should" usage, I prefer the intellectual honesty. Those that would dictate other's lives betray that instinct when they use "you should". Covering it in more "inclusive" chatter merely provides the veneer of civility.

 

[Admiral Beez]

As for the "you should" usage, I prefer the intellectual honesty. Those that would dictate other's lives betray that instinct when they use "you should". Covering it in more "inclusive" chatter merely provides the veneer of civility.

I agree, but it just reminds me too much of Miller-like nanny-state thinking. I can just imagine our mayor using such language, along the likes of "Torontonians should use more transit, so let's make the alternative of car use less palatable". This city is good at the "push", but very poor at the "pull" when it comes to justifying and implementing whatever schemes they're up to.

 

[Torontovibe]

Oh yeah, that'll work for my monthly grocery trip for my family of four and four pets. My kids alone could eat the fill of one of your bag-lady carts in a week.

Who goes grocery shopping once a month? Does your diet consist of all processed food? lol Don't tell me you're one of those people who freezes their bread and pastry! (YUK!) Things like fruit, veggies, fish and bread were meant to be eaten FRESH!
I thought we downtowners lived more of a European type experience. I know I do. I live in St. Lawrence, so I'm surrounded by many options to buy groceries, day and night. I buy my food fresh,on a daily basis,while walking home from work. Maybe it's something I picked up while living in Europe but it's a much healthier way to live.

 

[digi]

He's british, they wash their clothes in the kitchen.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Not all of us - I get my clothes cleaned at Del Ray on Parliament.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I thought we downtowners lived more of a European type experience. I know I do.

I always chuckle at this downtowners as European reference. Have you been to Europe? It's a pretty big place, with a huge variation in shopping and eating habits. Just what part of Europe are you speaking of? Perhaps it's Greece, but unless your haggling at the local market over the price of olives, I don't think so. Perhaps it's Russia, where money is scarce and stores have little produce for the average person to buy. Perhaps it's the UK or Ireland, where Tescos rules the supermarket and few folks go to local grocers, because, with the exception of the enthic/immigrant focused shops, they're out of business. Perhaps it's Germany, but hmmm....looked like the British shopping experience to me.

So, just what part of Europe reminds you of living downtown Toronto? For me, having traveled extensively in Europe as a international sales and marketing guy for Canadian food exporters, I'd say we're very much like some of the smaller UK cities where there is okay transit, plenty of car ownership, and several very large supermarket chains dominating the outside border of the area, with, of course massive free parking lots.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I agree, the market will dictate as well it should.

As for the "you should" usage, I prefer the intellectual honesty. Those that would dictate other's lives betray that instinct when they use "you should". Covering it in more "inclusive" chatter merely provides the veneer of civility.

A city driven only by what the market dictates would be a terrible place to live. People tend to act in terms of short-term benefits. Which makes sense, but makes for pretty lousy long-term decisions.

The market would have supported the Spadina Expressway (it'd be filled with cars every day), and I'm sure if you knocked down Old City Hall and replaced it with a Home Depot and a big parking lot, it'd be full all the time.

What the "market dictates" is only a small piece of Planning. People will always make use of big stores, free parking and wide roads, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily the best things to build.

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

I do agree with you that in some areas market forces must be subverted for the general good, transit for example needs to be pushed as well as pulled. I think that doesn't necessarily apply to a shopping development in a former industrial area atop a landfill.

Curiously, the parts of the city most people on this forum consider to be better than the suburbs largely predate comprehensive urban planning. So the pre-WW2 housing and commercial real estate/building market seems to have done an good job of building a Toronto we enjoy.

 

[GraphicMatt]

They also largely predate the existence of widespread car ownership and big box stores.

 

[W. K. Lis]

At one time, delivery of large goods was either included in the sale price or a small service fee, using the store's own trucks. Nowadays, the delivery service is contracted out and at a large fee, and installation is now extra.

 

[Admiral Beez]

At one time, delivery of large goods was either included in the sale price or a small service fee, using the store's own trucks. Nowadays, the delivery service is contracted out and at a large fee, and installation is now extra.

That would still be the case, IF consumers were willing to pay the higher prices for the higher degree of service. There's a reason Eatons and Simpsons went out of business or sold out, and that was a revolution in customer behaviour. No one forced customers to buy their TVs at Future Shop rather than Simpsons, but as customers we're almost always willing to shirk our beliefs in pursuit of better prices. It's like my in-laws, they always talk about how much they like the customer and inflight service at West Jet over Air Canada, but when it comes to buying the tickets for their next vacation, they buy AC. When I ask them about it, they say that they saved $50 a ticket on AC over West Jet; to which I reply that the extra $50 on West Jet was to pay for the better service, and that they'll just taught WJ a lesson that the customer wants the service, but isn't willing to pay for it.

That is what created the Big Box, business folks realizing latent customer demand for cheaper goods with limited or no customer service.

 

[Hydrogen]

For larger products, there's a thing called delivery too.

There's also a thing called a "charge" for delivery.

 

[TKTKTK]

That said, my mother in law lives in the Beach(es) and though she's retired and still active, she rarely takes the TTC and takes her car instead to the TSO, ROM, AGO and the other threatres without accronyms.

Taking the streetcar from the Beach to Downtown (or vice versa) is torture. Who has that much free time?