[rbt]

Good point. We should have been asking QP for a sales tax yesterday.

You mean the feds.

QP sets the rates but the feds determine the region and already told QP they would not allow for different regional HST rates. That's how the sales tax boost discussion ended up being province wide and getting serious pushback from non-GTA areas.

I don't recall the official reason (either their software capabilities or a constitution thing) but I suspect the unofficial reason may have been that Harper was against the idea.

Either way, even if QP agrees to make a regional sales tax you need to either convince the feds to collect it for you or back out of HST (with all the penalties that includes) and do your own tax collection again.

 

[bobbob911]

Couldn't it be structured as a provincial regional hike and transfer to the city? If the Feds need to okay it were screwed, but I think the province would 100% agree to it.

Was that the Harper government that said no? If so the Trudeau government might be a little more flexible

 

[rbt]

Couldn't it be structured as a provincial regional hike and transfer to the city? If the Feds need to okay it were screwed, but I think the province would 100% agree to it.

Was that the Harper government that said no? If so the Trudeau government might be a little more flexible

Yes, more specifically, Harper government said single rate province wide or do it yourself. They didn't want an increase but would have accepted it.

I suspect the federal tax software would need some non-trivial modifications. It's likely optimized to trigger on the Province field (a tiny array) and this would require something more advanced; if they've got COBOL in their backend still then even going from a small province array to a large municipality array would be non-trivial and slow to implement.

Even if Trudeau agreed it might take years to actually implement if there are technical changes required.


The province could have structured it is as province wide thing + an income tax refund outside the GTA. I don't think that would have played well in the media though.

 

[bobbob911]

Then I suppose the easiest one to implement would be a payroll tax. Not as good as sales tax because it doesn't cover visitors to the city, but it does cover 905 commuters and can be easily made progressive to income.

 

[sixrings]

user fee is more fair then a payroll tax. What if the person never uses the highway? people wont like this comment here but I prefer it be the way it is in NYC. It costs so much to drive after parking and everything that the only people who drive are super rich. The rest of the people accept walking and transit. I say this from the perspective of someone who assumes to never be super rich but would be happy to see a lot more transit be developed and a more dense city where we could walk to places easier.

 

[bobbob911]

It's not an either/or but I think a payroll tax is probably just as fair as a road toll. The problem with road tolls is they will take a long time to get up and running, and the unintended consequences (traffic diversion, etc) are not well understood. A payroll tax could be implemented almost immediately if it were approved.

When you say NYC do you mean Manhattan? I assume a significant amount of people living in the outer boroughs have cars.

 

[Admiral Beez]

but I prefer it be the way it is in NYC. It costs so much to drive after parking and everything that the only people who drive are super rich. The rest of the people accept walking and transit.

We have that now in Toronto. The reason the TTC offers such crappy service is that their core customers are captive, with huge switching costs. Anyone who can afford either the money or the time (in traffic) takes their car.

By adding to the cost of using the car through tolls, Toronto can tip more people into the TTC's captive group, while making zero upgrades or new investment in transit. You don't need to respect or even give a sh#t about your customers unless they have low switching costs.

I'm 45, and I'll be an old man, and Tory likely dead before any of this toll money has led to any new operational (as opposed to zoned, planned or under construction) mass transit in the old city of Toronto. Maybe more LRTs to the 416 'burbs, but DRL or subway expansion within the old city, forget it.

 

[W. K. Lis]

We have that now in Toronto. The reason the TTC offers such crappy service is that their core customers are captive, with huge switching costs. Anyone who can afford either the money or the time (in traffic) takes their car.

By adding to the cost of using the car through tolls, Toronto can tip more people into the TTC's captive group, while making zero upgrades or new investment in transit. You don't need to respect or even give a sh#t about your customers unless they have low switching costs.

I'm 45, and I'll be an old man, and Tory likely dead before any of this toll money has led to any new operational (as opposed to zoned, planned or under construction) mass transit in the old city of Toronto. Maybe more LRTs to the 416 'burbs, but DRL or subway expansion within the old city, forget it.

Compared to other North American transit agencies, the TTC is good (not great). HOWEVER, it can be better if the federal, provincial, and municipal governments actually give proper budgetary operational support. The TTC has been underfunded since the 1990's from the government for operations, not just capital projects that look good at photo ops.

 

[sixrings]

that's ridiculous. In Manhattan 90% of cars are Mercedes. Not to say that Toronto doesn't have its fair share of luxury cars but still our city streets are dominated by civics and corollas. If you are driving a civic/corolla you are either super cheap or this is as much as you can afford. My father was either super cheap or we were just making our budgets. We had in my life 3 sentras, 2 corollas, and 2 camrys. Also if we really were like the way NYC is there wouldn't be this outlash against the toll since most people would be either pedestrians or transit users. Instead there is outrage because most (not maybe urbantorontonians) torontonians do in fact drive and drive as much as possible.

 

[W. K. Lis]

that's ridiculous. In Manhattan 90% of cars are Mercedes. Not to say that Toronto doesn't have its fair share of luxury cars but still our city streets are dominated by civics and corollas. If you are driving a civic/corolla you are either super cheap or this is as much as you can afford. My father was either super cheap or we were just making our budgets. We had in my life 3 sentras, 2 corollas, and 2 camrys. Also if we really were like the way NYC is there wouldn't be this outlash against the toll since most people would be either pedestrians or transit users. Instead there is outrage because most (not maybe urbantorontonians) torontonians do in fact drive and drive as much as possible.

Or SUVs

 

[W. K. Lis]

Kissing butt time again. Committee shuffling time. See link.

 

[steveintoronto]

Hah unfortunately I can't keep up with all the UT threads around exam period.

I have been playing around with google maps, what a regional council might look like. 6 districts : Downtown, Midtown, North York, East York, Scarborough and Etobicoke. I changed around the traditional Scarboroug border west to the DVP north of Eglinton, and extending East York into Birchmount south of Eglinton.

I think this practice is an attempt to see what better way to form municipal government in the amalgamated city of Toronto. Basically a move back to a metro-Toronto form of government without de-amalgamating. So TTC would still be the operating transit agency for the 416.

The biggest problem with having Metrolinx operate transit in the 416, is that they won't care about providing a local TTC bus route through Leaside, or many of the other low-density neighbourhoods that the TTC operates buses in. With no municipal government and municipal voters to be accountable to, Metrolinx can trash them in an effort to save money or whenever some PC government gets elected provincially.

 

[steveintoronto]

Hah unfortunately I can't keep up with all the UT threads around exam period.

I have been playing around with google maps, what a regional council might look like. 6 districts : Downtown, Midtown, North York, East York, Scarborough and Etobicoke. I changed around the traditional Scarboroug border west to the DVP north of Eglinton, and extending East York into Birchmount south of Eglinton.

I think this practice is an attempt to see what better way to form municipal government in the amalgamated city of Toronto. Basically a move back to a metro-Toronto form of government without de-amalgamating. So TTC would still be the operating transit agency for the 416.

The biggest problem with having Metrolinx operate transit in the 416, is that they won't care about providing a local TTC bus route through Leaside, or many of the other low-density neighbourhoods that the TTC operates buses in. With no municipal government and municipal voters to be accountable to, Metrolinx can trash them in an effort to save money or whenever some PC government gets elected provincially.

Here's the latest on the Scarborough de-amalgamation movement at the TorStar:

By Alicja SiekierskaStaff Reporter
Tues., Nov. 29, 2016
A disgruntled Scarborough resident is fed up with Toronto’s city council and is hoping a petition will help start the process of de-amalgamation.

Robert McDermott, a real estate agent in Scarborough, said he launched the “Free Scarborough Campaign” because amalgamation has been “a dismal failure” that has led to tax increases and declines in service. McDermott is calling for Scarborough to de-amalgamate from the city “to restore accessible, local government.”

Scarborough and surrounding Toronto municipalities merged to form the modern City of Toronto in 1998 after then-premier Mike Harris passed amalgamation legislation that was proposed as a way to save the province money. The controversial bill was heavily opposed at the time, and calls for de-amalgamation have resurfaced over the years since it was enacted.

“Property taxes in Scarborough have been continually going up and services have been declining,” McDermott said, adding the amalgamated council has fuelled division between downtown Toronto and the suburbs surrounding it.

“We’ve lost the ability to manage our own affairs, really. We’re being dictated by a centralized government in downtown Toronto.”

Online, McDermott’s campaign has failed to receive much traction, with just over 90 signatures on the online petition as of Tuesday afternoon. However, he said he has received about 3,200 signatures from going door-to-door in Scarborough. McDermott hopes to gather enough signatures by the end of 2017 to compel municipal and provincial officials to launch a referendum on de-amalgamation.

John Sewell, who was mayor and councillor in the late 1970s and early 1980s and was against amalgamation, believes that council is both too large and that the area it covers is too vast.

Scarborough and surrounding Toronto municipalities merged in 1998, as a result of amalgamation legislation aimed at saving the province money. (Andrew Francis Wallace / TORONTO STAR)
“A different system would have better government, people more closely related to their government,” Sewell said. “I don’t believe that anybody feels they are in control of what is happening in their city at the moment.”

A 2013 study from the University of Toronto’s Institute on Municipal Finance and Governance found that amalgamation resulted in a city that is both too small to address regional issues that plague the GTA, such as transportation, and too big to be responsive to local residents.

While it is certainly possible to undo amalgamation, it is not an easy process – and one that the province has shown little interest in, said Lydia Miljan, an associate professor of political science at the University of Windsor.

Miljan and Zachary Spicer co-authored a 2015 Fraser Institute study looking at the process of de-amalgamation, focusing on whether it was possible to reverse the process and whether it is the best decision when it comes to finances and governance. That study found while there is no reason de-amalgamation cannot be pursued, it is often not desirable.

“It’s a really complicated process,” said Miljan. “You would have to decide what did Scarborough have pre-amalgamation and what did it get after, and then decide whether or not the amalgamated municipality owes money to the place it just left and how much that would be.”

In theory, amalgamation is a simple process that just requires provincial approval, said Spicer, an assistant professor at Brock University, but in practice “it’s a bit more tricky.”

“The province doesn’t need the city to say yes or no, but they realistically wouldn’t move forward without their approval,” he said. “Even if the city approved, it wouldn’t be easy, it wouldn’t be simple and it would take a long time to figure out how to divide assets.”

Spicer also said there isn’t political motivation for the province to re-open the issue of amalgamation.

“The province used a lot of political capital to amalgamate, and to de-amalgamate now would be a fight they don’t need. There’s not a whole lot of benefit to do it,” he said.

McDermott understands it’s a difficult process, but he hopes the campaign will get both residents and politicians talking.

“There’s a lack of accountability when it comes to decision making,” he said. “I think it’s time Scarborough go it alone.”

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...rough-resident-calls-for-de-amalgamation.html

 

[Admiral Beez]

I imagine my parents and their neighbours living south of Kingston Rd. from Guildwood Pkwy to Victoria Park would like to secede from Scarborough.

 

[bobbob911]

Bluffs Nation

In all honestly - I'd rather be affiliated with Scarborough than the snootiness of the Beaches!!