[innsertnamehere]

We don’t have lower property taxes. Property value aside, take a five bedroom semi like mine and put it in Mississauga, and I guarantee I pay more. That’s because property tax is set as a percentage of its assessed value, and Mississauga is worth less. That‘s the problem with these property tax comparisons, they take a hypothetical equal value home, when they should be using a hypothetical house type. I bought my house in 1998, when it was about a quarter million, but now it’s valued at four times that, but my use of city services has not quadrupled, nor has my ability to pay quadrupled.

no they shouldn't. If you moved to Mississauga, you could afford a much larger home. You probably wouldn't live in a semi (never mind the fact that there is essentially no such thing as a 5 bed semi in Mississauga), you would likely live in a larger detached home.

Property taxes are based on assessed value since they tax the value of your home.

A home is an asset that is taxed like any other - by asset value. Capital gains on stocks aren't taxed per stock, it's taxed on the financial gain.

It reminds me of the plights of seniors who complain that the carrying costs of their million dollar homes are too high for their CPP and GIS incomes. They try to plead poor while sitting on a million bucks. Sorry buddy, no sympathy. You literally state that you have enjoyed an average 7% annual appreciation on your home over the last 21 years, tax free, yet plead poor that you can't afford a higher property tax rate? Bull crap on not being able to afford it, you just have cash flow problems.

Assessed value is what matters. And Toronto has much lower property taxes. Stupidly lower.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Assessed value is what matters. And Toronto has much lower property taxes. Stupidly lower.

Torontonians pay a higher total tax bill per property, that's what matters. It's your payout that matters, not how they got there.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Torontonians pay a higher total tax bill per property, that's what matters. It's your payout that matters, not how they got there.

1. They don't, look at Northern Light's post above mine.

2. The reality of life is when you go house shopping you don't shop on what form the house is, you shop on your budget. In Toronto, that happens to buy you a lot less than in Uxbridge.

The reality is in your case that you happened to hit the real estate lottery and own a property that is worth much more now than it did 20 years ago. You should be celebrating that fact, not complaining that the property taxes are high.

I get that Toronto bringing their taxes up to a similar rate as the GTA (About 1% of assessed value) isn't really realistic or necessary, But the reality is that Toronto pays the lowest tax rate in the GTA, and by a significant margin. There is no ifs, whats, or buts about it.

 

[Northern Light]

Torontonians pay a higher total tax bill per property, that's what matters. It's your payout that matters, not how they got there.

As noted in my post, this simply isn't accurate.

The payout of the average Toronto household is substantially lower than in neighbouring municipalities.

 

[zang]

I believe it's not cynical to presume that general revenue will be largely consumed by increased salary demands by public workers.

Probably because we don’t even value public service workers enough to increase their salary equivalent to inflation and cost of living increases.
And so, they strike. It ends us costing us more in the long run, devalues public service careers, forces high value employees to leave, and feeds this insane theory that attrition and austerity somehow work.
So if some of the tax increase go to paying public service workers more or hiring more, y’know, I’m okay with that.

BTW, did you know that years of attrition and cuts have left the entire city of Toronto Animal Services with just two veterinarians? Two. For the fourth largest city on the continent. They constantly have to run around the city to be at different locations/shelters. They work an outrageous amount of hours, are on call most of the time and worst of all, are considered “management” because they direct the veterinary technicians, and thus can’t join a union. They’re massively overworked and stretched too thin. And the vet techs are basically the equivalent of dental technicians, only providing support, not expertise or skill. But they’re cheaper than vets and it “looks good on paper”. But those vet techs are always deferring to the vets. Surgeries, euthanasia, even many routine procedures can’t be performed by the techs and those that can require a vet’s supervision.

I know all of this because my friend’s wife is one of those two vets.

so yeah, yay for cutting public services down to woefully inadequate numbers?

 

[SunriseChampion]

Are public service workers that poorly paid? What are some sample salaries, including benefits. I don't want to hear any nonsense about how including benefits in a salary calculation isn't fair either. Total compensation = total salary.

I'm genuinely curious because I most certainly don't feel bad for them, I'll tell ya what. I don't understand not keeping wage increases in line with or above inflation either...that's just mean.

Maybe @TrickyRicky and @Admiral Beez are worried that any tax increases will end up going to bullshit like the city equivalent of the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity (yo, I'm never letting this go, it's too fucked).

Further to that, though completely unrelated, what do Animal Services vets do? Wait, what do Animal Services do? And what does a Minister of Middle Class Prosperity do whilst we're at it? ?

I'm asking about the vets because last summer when I tried rescuing an injured bird, I was directed to some animal farm warehouse thingy somewhere up north in the outskirts near Steeles and couldn't make it there so I had to stay with the cardinal til he took his last wee breath and then bury him under a juniper bush in front of some house. Or the time I tried saving a two week old squirrel baby who had fallen out of a soffit onto a roof below and was similarly directed to some far-off place. I had to crush its head so it wouldn't suffer it wouldn't have survived, and I don't know if it was injured. That was the first time I've ever had to kill an animal without eating it. Felt wasteful.

More money, less death?

 

[Northern Light]

Are public service workers that poorly paid? What are some sample salaries, including benefits. I don't want to hear any nonsense about how including benefits in a salary calculation isn't fair either. Total compensation = total salary.

I'm genuinely curious because I most certainly don't feel bad for them, I'll tell ya what.

I don't understand not keeping wage increases in line with or above inflation either...that's just mean.

The answer to question one, is it varies.

Toronto police are exceedingly well paid, and Toronto firefighters and paramedics do pretty well.

Certainly senior management at every level of government is comfortable.

That said, entry-level compensation in Parks and Recreation is minimum wage, part-time employment.

That's an income that's literally impossible to survive on in Toronto.

In respect of other levels of government, it likewise varies, I know a Federal civil servant who is leaving Toronto because she can't afford to say in the City on a full-time cheque.

*****

Of course there is waste at times; of course some staff are very fully compensated, and some excessively so.

But in the aggregate, civil service employment at the City is not a gold mine; as with the province and the feds, sub-inflation increases and even the odd pay freeze have been normative over the last decade plus.

There are exceptions, but none of scale, first responders excluded, that would exceed inflation when averaged over 10 years.

*****

I can further add, that while there are some poorly run programs, and some programs that really should be consolidated or ended; that overwhelmingly government is not overstaffed.

People who suggest otherwise may sadly face anger, grief and that realization when they are on hold for 911.

If posters want to argue for value-for-money, be my guest, I can spill plenty of stories on how gov't could spend better; and even more about the private sector, (I'm talking Billion dollar plus companies here).....though maybe not in public.......as I enjoy getting paid.

Be that as it may, can we please base conversations here around the facts?

 

[SunriseChampion]

That said, entry-level compensation in Parks and Recreation is minimum wage, part-time employment.

That's an income that's literally impossible to survive on in Toronto.

No doubt! I can't imagine what sort of hovel I'd have to live in with how many people and how I'd only be able to frequent the shitty Parkdale No Frills like twice a month for kilos of rice and lentils.

One of my best friends is a haridresser and moved to Perth, Western Australia four years ago. She legit cannot afford to move back to Toronto. hahaha (I'm laughing, she's laughing, don't bother)

In respect of other levels of government, it likewise varies, I know a Federal civil servant who is leaving Toronto because she can't afford to say in the City on a full-time cheque.

For real? That's surprising to me. I'd find it hard to believe coming from someone less...um...informed than you.

I can further add, that while there are some poorly run programs, and some programs that really should be consolidated or ended; that overwhelmingly government is not overstaffed.

Yeah, I never reckoned it were. I'm just not down with the Ministers of Made-Up Magic, if you know what I mean.

People who suggest otherwise may sadly face the anger, grief and that realization when they are on hold for 911.

Two weeks ago, I was driving onto the Gardiner East onramp at Jameson and narrowly missed a homeless crackhead (I know most of the crew here on the corner) who was crouched down, in the rain and dark in a live lane of traffic. I immediately got on the phone and dialled 911 (it comes up as 112 on my phone because....hahaha, my phone thinks I'm in Europe shhhhh) only to be on hold for at least a minute! I didn't know being on hold on 911 was a thing! Wtf is that?
I felt terrible becaues my first instinct was to stop and help the dude, but I couldn't stop without causing an accident potentially involving him.

If posters want to argue for value-for-money, be my guest, I can spill plenty of stories on how gov't could spend better; and even more about the private sector, (I'm talking Billion dollar plus companies here).....though maybe not in public.......as I enjoy getting paid.

I'll call shenanigans where I see it. This includes the salaries of executives at both private and public companies...don't get me started on value-for-money there. You know me, I'm an equal opportunity hater.

Be that as it may, can we please base conversations here around the facts?

I'm all for it the facts, though they often get in the way of bullshit.

 

[Northern Light]

For real? That's surprising to me. I'd find it hard to believe coming from someone less...um...informed than you.

I can understand that, to be fair to her, I'll be careful what I say, but she works/worked in a program assisting the disabled.

She was earning just over 40k; she personally hadn't had more than 2% raise in years and had a wage freeze more than once, while her rent climbed much faster.

Her rent was $1,700 a month; for a modest 2 bdrm place; that's over 21k a year; and she was clearing not much over 30k after taxes.

Yeah, I never reckoned it were. I'm just not down with the Ministers of Made-Up Magic, if you know what I mean.

No argument there!

Two weeks ago, I was driving onto the Gardiner East onramp at Jameson and narrowly missed a homeless crackhead (I know most of the crew here on the corner) who was crouched down, in the rain and dark in a live lane of traffic. I immediately got on the phone and dialled 911 (it comes up as 112 on my phone because....hahaha, my phone thinks I'm in Europe shhhhh) only to be on hold for at least a minute! I didn't know being on hold on 911 was a thing! Wtf is that?
I felt terrible becaues my first instinct was to stop and help the dude, but I couldn't stop without causing an accident potentially involving him.

Very much a thing; they've hired a lot in the last year......but even so they are understaffed; if it hasn't already, it will surely and sadly cost someone their life.

 

[zang]

Further to that, though completely unrelated, what do Animal Services vets do? Wait, what do Animal Services do?

They run shelters and pet adoptions and pick up strays. They also run chip clinics, enforce animal bylaws, tag dogs, etc.

The vets get to deal with the messy side of it. Sick/injured animals brought into the shelters, etc. It would seem they also go on animal welfare calls. I've heard the nightmares of the animal hoarder homes. There were a couple of stories this year alone where more than 100 cats were taken out of a home (one was 300+!). Cats long dead; dozens with needing to be put down due to severe health problems because they're inbred.

 

[SunriseChampion]

The vets get to deal with the messy side of it. Sick/injured animals brought into the shelters, etc. It would seem they also go on animal welfare calls. I've heard the nightmares of the animal hoarder homes. There were a couple of stories this year alone where more than 100 cats were taken out of a home (one was 300+!). Cats long dead; dozens with needing to be put down due to severe health problems because they're inbred.

I hate people sometimes. That sort of animal warehousing is worse than factory farming if only because factory farmed animals serve a purpose and feed people (who evidently may not always deserve to be fed ). I'm an animal lover to the point where I consider it cruel to keep dogs in apartments, for example.
I eat meat and all, and have hunted and killed my own food so it's always hilarious to get shit-talked by people who keep a dog cooped up in a small Toronto flat all day. Hypocritical dickheads. I just don't understand people who smother and hurt animals because of their selfish need for trinkets and/or companionship.

Anyway, thanks for that. Wasn't sure if the service I had been directed to was involved with that department. I was sent there by 311.
Does anyone know the place I'm talking about? It's possibly at the zoo or at York University, I honestly don't remember. It was some sort of emergency animal rescue farm/warehouse/vets.

 

[TrickyRicky]

My comment on salary demands is not a swipe on City Workers nor does it comment on poor resource allocation or specific departments being starved of funding. Besides for every anecdote like Northern Light’s parks department or Zang’s veterinary one you could find another one like the young lady at the water department that sits around drawing anime in her journal or a guy I know who would park his TTC truck under an overpass and sleep. My point is that regardless salary is top line and asset maintenance is deferred. Capital improvements are somewhere in between. A special levy is probably (and of course this is just an opinion) much more likely to get social housing units or transit built than allocating a similar amount of money from general revenues funded by a mill rate increase.

Insertnamehere, I appreciate lack of sympathy for those seniors on the grounds that they sit on a potential jackpot but I don’t agree. It speaks to what money is for in the first place? Maybe that’s a philosophical conceit of the wealth but those seniors never asked for there house to appreciate 10 times in value. Maybe they just want to die in the house they raised their family? If we go down that road where compassion is that black and white we could make many arguments why many people in different circumstances are not worthy of our consideration

 

[lenaitch]

For real? That's surprising to me. I'd find it hard to believe coming from someone less...um...informed than you.

Our daughter is a federal civil servant in another city. Coming up on 10 years in, was making a few bucks over minimum wage until a lengthy but ultimately successful re-classification appeal (now better but she's not thumbing yacht catalogues). Decent benefits package, though.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Our daughter is a federal civil servant in another city. Coming up on 10 years in, was making a few bucks over minimum wage until a lengthy but ultimately successful re-classification appeal (now better but she's not thumbing yacht catalogues). Decent benefits package, though.

Well, you're also an informed individual so I'll take it.

The only person I know who is a federal civil servant is one of my best friends' (two brothers) mum who has worked for Human Resources and Development since at least the mid-90s and is just about retired now. Poor ain't the word. I don't know what she does exactly. I think she's some mid-level manager maybe.

 

[DSCToronto]

Torontonians pay a higher total tax bill per property, that's what matters. It's your payout that matters, not how they got there.

That is simply untrue.