[T3G]

Why does Toronto always have to make everything so complicated?

Treat the scooters the exact same way as you do bikes and the entire crux of this problem goes away. The fact that we are actually having this discussion is ridiculous.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-e-scooters-1.6918440

 

[tripwire]

Why does Toronto always have to make everything so complicated?

Treat the scooters the exact same way as you do bikes and the entire crux of this problem goes away. The fact that we are actually having this discussion is ridiculous.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-e-scooters-1.6918440

Mostly agreed. I'd say that small e-scooters (for kids) should be speed limited. But other than that, I do agree that treating them like bicycles seems the simplest/best(?) option?

 

[Northern Light]

Why does Toronto always have to make everything so complicated?

Treat the scooters the exact same way as you do bikes and the entire crux of this problem goes away. The fact that we are actually having this discussion is ridiculous.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-e-scooters-1.6918440

Because Mr. Lepofsky has clout?

****

Don't get me wrong, I agree that reasonable answers here are not that difficult.

But stuff gets kicked down the road, because decisions invariably tick someone off who didn't get their way, so better, say staff and some members of Council to 'study more' and defer making up one's mind.

 

[DSC]

Because Mr. Lepofsky has clout?

View attachment 495922

****

Don't get me wrong, I agree that reasonable answers here are not that difficult.

But stuff gets kicked down the road, because decisions invariably tick someone off who didn't get their way, so better, say staff and some members of Council to 'study more' and defer making up one's mind.

That is the way of the world and, having been in several Cities which allow (or allowed) scooters I have some sympathy as they did seem to be lying around everywhere and were certainly trip hazards! Of course, as Toronto is great at passing by-laws it does not enforce, it really will not change anything if they were actually 'legalised'.

 

[nhincompoop]

Though this sign (on Lower Jarvis just south of the rail berm is warning about a Metrolinx project so it is probably a Metrolinx sign, it is all too typical to warn pedestrians of vehicles crossing their (our!) sidewalk while not reminding vehicles that pedestrians have priority!

View attachment 495805

Technically, this sign is only warning one pedestrian....

 

[DSC]

Technically, this sign is only warning one pedestrian....

Well, one at a time!

 

[DSC]

Not quite sure where this fits best but the City has just installed some of the flashing illuminated signs saying the Parliament Street from Front to Lake Shore will be CLOSED for the month of August. I assume this is for the final section of the huge gas main project that will go from Mill St to Lake Shore Blvd and is probably necessary but it will certainly not help the traffic situation.

EDIT. Yes, it's posted now on the Road Restrictions map and it IS the gas main. But this site says it will start at 6am on 31 July and end on August 20th.

 

[zang]

Mostly agreed. I'd say that small e-scooters (for kids) should be speed limited. But other than that, I do agree that treating them like bicycles seems the simplest/best(?) option?

Kids ones are already speed limited for safety's sake. Usually 17km/h.

The problem is differentiating between stand-up kick-style scooters and seated vespa style.

Kick-style should be allowed in bike lanes if they exist, and on sidewalks if no bike lanes exist as there's less structure to protect a rider on the road.

Seated scooters should be on the road, period. There's little difference the weight of gas vs. electric seated scooters and minor differences in top speed. Most of the difference lies in the means of propulsion, and the fact that we've treated them as different for so long is ridiculous.

 

[Richard White]

So regarding E-Scooters I can speak from experience when I say they are more headaches than they are worth.

Hungary has legalized E-Scooters and when I was there in June I came across (and rode) a few. Simply put, they were left everywhere and most of the time in the middle of the sidewalk.

In Budapest and Tarnok they have E-scooters you can rent via an app. Most of the scooters are managed by Lime and work by initializing the scooter on an app and then ending the ride via the same app.

There are no docks and the scooters can be left anywhere for people to pick them up.

The problem I would foresee with this in Toronto is the homeless trying to steal them or having them left in the middle of a sidewalk out front of a store. I could also foresee people trying to take them into shopping malls or on transit.

They cannot move unless initialized and have anti-theft protection along with GPS. If you try to move one without initializing it, the brakes lock and sirens go off.

Trust me when I say, be thankful they are not legally rentable like the Bikeshare bikes are. It would be a nightmare.

See the images I attached for how they are left after being used in Budapest and Tarnok.

 

[Jonny5]

So regarding E-Scooters I can speak from experience when I say they are more headaches than they are worth.

Hungary has legalized E-Scooters and when I was there in June I came across (and rode) a few. Simply put, they were left everywhere and most of the time in the middle of the sidewalk.

In Budapest and Tarnok they have E-scooters you can rent via an app. Most of the scooters are managed by Lime and work by initializing the scooter on an app and then ending the ride via the same app.

There are no docks and the scooters can be left anywhere for people to pick them up.

The problem I would foresee with this in Toronto is the homeless trying to steal them or having them left in the middle of a sidewalk out front of a store. I could also foresee people trying to take them into shopping malls or on transit.

They cannot move unless initialized and have anti-theft protection along with GPS. If you try to move one without initializing it, the brakes lock and sirens go off.

Trust me when I say, be thankful they are not legally rentable like the Bikeshare bikes are. It would be a nightmare.

See the images I attached for how they are left after being used in Budapest and Tarnok.

Definitely. Rental scooters are little more than joyride junk. There's lots of Canadian cities that regret allowing these rental services who take zero responsibility for their machines dropped like garbage all over the place.
They're there to use up VC money and when it runs out hoping someone will either buy them out, or they vapourise and leave the mess behind.

 

[Richard White]

Definitely. Rental scooters are used as little more than joyride junk. There's lots of Canadian cities that regret allowing these rental services who take zero responsibility for their garbage machines dropped all over the place.
They're there to use up VC money and when it runs out hoping someone will either buy them out, or they vapourise and leave the mess behind.

Don't get me wrong, they were a lifesaver a couple times when I was short on time.

I topped out at 25 KM an hour on them without a helmet or anything and I was questioning my life choices. My thoughts were what happens if I hit a rock at 25 KM/H.

They are novelties but I found them to be impractical. Riding them on the sidewalk was problematic because they are so narrow. Riding them on the road was dangerous because they are not exactly compatible with live 60 KPH traffic.

Be thankful we do not have them here.

 

[Richard White]

About 90% of Parisians voted to ban electric scooters a few months ago. Apparently there were several deaths and hundreds of injuries.

I went full tilt over a speed bump on an e-scooter. I almost went flying because I did not see the speed bump until I hit it.

When I was riding it, I had a hard time keeping control of it and if it did go squirrely, I would have been seriously hurt. I was also concerned that I would be hit by a car or collide with someone while using it.

 

[T3G]

That's a very nice anecdote from Hungary, but it goes both ways.

I was in Bratislava and Prague this summer and definitely didn't notice that there was any significant problem with the scooters being left laying around. If anything, I found that compared to my previous visits there over the last 2 years the situation with scooters had improved, not one was left lying on its side or in anyone's way. I think it is also disingenuous to call them "joyride junk", there's a market that they fulfill. There were several times I missed my bus, or needed to get somewhere that would have been needlessly convoluted by transit, where the scooter came to the rescue, and I ended up getting there before the next bus did. A ton of people use the rental services.

The fact that Parisians voted to ban the scooters is absolutely baffling to me. It's the sort of nanny state shit you'd expect to see in North America, not Europe. As stated before, if you treat them the exact same way you do a bike, the whole problem goes away. Whether the issue is one's own safety or the safety of other users on the road or in the street, there is nothing special or unique about the situation of an e-scooter that hasn't been encountered with bikes. Bike riders have been endangered by other road users and have endangered themselves and pedestrians through their actions. The hysterical pearl clutching about e-scooters is laughable. No one in their right mind would suggest banning bikes.

As for homeless people trying to steal them, well, I'm amazed to discover there are apparently no homeless people in Europe. What a wonder that is!

Being thankful we do not have them here is like being thankful to live in a city of puritans angrily hissing at the fresh discovery of electricity.

 

[zang]

Rental scooters are one thing. We haven’t even made a rational law about non-electric kick scooters in general, let alone one about electrics . Non-electrics are allowed on the sidewalk, but not in bike lanes, and not on the road.
The latter I can understand, but not in bike lanes?

Free "rental" services will ultimately lead to the destruction or theft of the property. Docked rental scooters tied to your debit/credit card would likely offer up about as much problem as our current similar bike service (ie; nil to none).

We need a rational discussion and proper definitions of what's allowed where.

Frankly, there's little difference between the Emmo Ado and a Vespa Primavera except what's driving the wheels. Oh, and that because of that the Emma doesn't require a helmet, license, plate, or insurance, but the Vespa does. Some accountability and a show of responsibility for the delivery riders buzzing up a busy narrow sidewalk on a one-way street might be nice (watch Charles St. on any given weeknight between 5-8pm and you'll be astounded at how many do this).

And I'd love to see a realistic definition of what's classified as an "e-bike"; because this monstrosity, with it's poorly placed, removable vestigial pedals, was specifically designed to fit through all the loopholes in the category of "e-bike" as defined by this city:

Zone MAX 84V

Discover the ultimate upgrade of the renowned full-size electric motorcycle, Emmo Zone GTS - Emmo Zone Max. With its QS super torque motor, 84V long-range lithium battery, and full-suspension platform. Explore the powerful capabilities of this exceptional electric motorcycle designed for...

emmo.ca

 

[rbt]

Rental scooters are one thing. We haven't even have a rational law about non-electric kick scooters in general, let alone one about . Non-electrics are allowed on the sidewalk, but not in bike lanes, and not on the road.
The latter I can understand, but not in bike lanes?

Free "rental" services will ultimately lead to the destruction or theft of the property. Docked rental scooters tied to your debit/credit card would likely offer up about as much problem as our current similar bike service (ie; nil to none).

We need a rational discussion and proper definitions of what's allowed where.

Agreed. Personally, I think we should just do a trial area with straight speed limits.

Something like 7km/h on the sidewalk (slow run), 25km/h in bike lanes, and above that you're in the wider car lanes.

People going for a fast paced run are often better off in the bike lane where dodging oblivious pedestrians coming out of stores isn't required. People riding bikes fast enough to keep up with traffic are also better off in the vehicle lane as passing in bike lanes is pretty tight to do at 2x the speed of many other lane users.

I'm also a fan of a hard 40km/h limit on all roadways in Toronto which are not vehicle only highways (i.e. DVP).