[taal]

This is the sort of thing I mean ... you talk about all this potential for new condos when none exist already. The same mentality as the Sheppard line. Clearly we can now see the Sheppard line will be and is a success considering the huge amount of development that arose because of it (presumably). Will the stretch north of Finch up to Hi-way 7 see as much? Possibly ... but even if it's just a fraction it's worth it.

But anyway my point is take King / Queen - there is already tons of new development with a ton more being planned. Why not build a subway here first where the demand already exists and is clearly growing.

Yes this is all a mute point as you said because politically speaking this is actually the best choice ... from a transit point of view I'm not saying it's wrong I'm just saying it should be lower down on a prioritized list.

Mind you I am saying that the extension North of YorkU is very very wrong from every perspective. I'm even curious how worth it is to York it self. If we're just replacing the 196 that's probably not worth it (I think the ridership is somewhere around 25K). If a lot of people around Finch though are going across to get to the Yonge line then it might be but I doubt that's the case so. The part north of York just makes me mad so I won't even address that.

 

[AgentOrange]

Ideally, a subway should be first built for a part of the city where people do exist rather then building one near undeveloped land with hopes/expectations that it will get developed.

 

[Whoaccio]

Ideally, a subway should be first built for a part of the city where people do exist rather then building one near undeveloped land with hopes/expectations that it will get developed.

It is funny that something which seems so logical and elementary needs explaining in Toronto.

 

[kEiThZ]

Ideally, a subway should be first built for a part of the city where people do exist rather then building one near undeveloped land with hopes/expectations that it will get developed.

I don't know if I'd agree. Building in an underdeveloped area would effectively allow the city and developers a blank canvass with which to work. Also, both the developers and the city would benefit from the rise in land values. Ideally, transit construction and development would occur simultaneously.

IMHO, a good example is Sheppard. The subway while useless initially has drawn in tons of development and is seeing lots of increase in ridership.

Conversely, while there are new condos coming up in the King/Queen corridor, how much would a new subway really add to development? Sure, the subway is needed for other reasons, but certainly not to draw in development.

Give it a decade, I am willing to bet that VCC will be a huge transit success.

 

[Le Gique]

.

IMHO, a good example is Sheppard. The subway while useless initially has drawn in tons of development and is seeing lots of increase in ridership.

snip

Give it a decade, I am willing to bet that VCC will be a huge transit success.

-at what cost? all that development and Sheppard is still four-car trains going every six minutes.

-and betting on VCC is a huge gamble -- well over $2B worth

-extensions to York region are near-term priority, it seems, but a DRL is long-range...

 

[taal]

Do you really think VCC will ever be a huge transit hub? Forget a decade how about 2 or 3 even?

If you made a similar argument for Hi-way 7 and Yonge I could by that but not VCC.

Most of the development there isn't really promoting transit use in any way.

 

[AgentOrange]

I don't know if I'd agree. Building in an underdeveloped area would effectively allow the city and developers a blank canvass with which to work. Also, both the developers and the city would benefit from the rise in land values. Ideally, transit construction and development would occur simultaneously.

IMHO, a good example is Sheppard. The subway while useless initially has drawn in tons of development and is seeing lots of increase in ridership.

Conversely, while there are new condos coming up in the King/Queen corridor, how much would a new subway really add to development? Sure, the subway is needed for other reasons, but certainly not to draw in development.

Give it a decade, I am willing to bet that VCC will be a huge transit success.

I was pissed when they went ahead with the Sheppard line. I was like, how about fixing an existing problem in the downtown core that who knows how many use rather then build a subway that initially had very low ridership.

I dont care about developments. I'd rather have a well run functioning transit system.

If the city/TTC (someone) doesnt do something quick to the King line, that stretch (which will also affect the surrounding area) will be disasterous!

 

[kEiThZ]

-at what cost? all that development and Sheppard is still four-car trains going every six minutes.

-and betting on VCC is a huge gamble -- well over $2B worth

Nobody builds subways for today. We build them for the decades that follow. Building that tunnel on Sheppard is going to prove to be a fiscally prudent decision down the road as subway costs increase faster than the rate of inflation. And ridership would have been significantly higher if the subway was built as planned to STC. So what if there are four trains now? When the traffic is there, the TTC will just tack on the extra cars.

As for the VCC....the York U extension was going to be built anyway. Hey, if York region wants to pay to tack on an extension, I have no problem with it....it's their tax dollars. As for betting 2 billion...I think there's potential for significantly more than 2 billion in development just in the 125 acres they've set aside in the core. With the 1500 acres they've set aside for the whole project, I think they will be successful in recovering their investment. I also think that it's a good idea to start building the mini city centres throughout the GTA with a focus on transit....or we might end up with another Mississauga.

-extensions to York region are near-term priority, it seems, but a DRL is long-range...

I suspect this has a lot to do with the impact of improving transit in the burbs. Building the DRL is unlikely to draw new ridership. It's needed to add capacity of course, but in reality with rising gas and parking prices, most Torontonians have no choice but to take the subway and be packed in like sardines during rush hour. In an ideal world, we'd have the money for both right away.

Do you really think VCC will ever be a huge transit hub? Forget a decade how about 2 or 3 even?

Define huge. The 3000 residents and 30 000 jobs is certainly not small. Not every rail line we build has to be to 'huge' transit hub. As long as the expenditure can bring in significant and dense new development (and tax revenues) there is certainly a case to be made for extending the YUS line to VCC. It won't be a huge transit hub but it will certainly be an area that handles large amounts of residents and workers, all of whom will be transit friendly folks.

If you made a similar argument for Hi-way 7 and Yonge I could by that but not VCC.

Most of the development there isn't really promoting transit use in any way.

Why not? Building transit infrastructure will promote transit use. Why would people not use a subway that's there? It's as valid as HWY 7/Yonge. Vaughan is getting an opportunity to plan transit friendly development from scratch. They don't have to take down small buildings, re-zone etc, to densify. They can plan a high density core from the very beginning. Imagine how Square One would have turned out, if it had a TTC stop at the centre.

In the end there is the political reality of it.....and I will readily admit to that. If Toronto wants subways, we are going to have to learn to play nice with the neighbours. We can't keep whining about funding if we aren't willing to co-operate and run lines into neighbouring jurisdictions. This co-operation will certainly improve Toronto's image and down the road, T.O. will be able to pitch the GTA and the province on the need for the DRL to accommodate all that ridership growth they got from running lines out into the 905!

 

[kEiThZ]

The draft RTP lumps in BRT/LRT/AGT together. Yet these are all vastly different in capacity and cost. I am wondering how they managed to do their estimates when they didn't consider which technology was appropriate for which corridor.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

-at what cost? all that development and Sheppard is still four-car trains going every six minutes.

-and betting on VCC is a huge gamble -- well over $2B worth

-extensions to York region are near-term priority, it seems, but a DRL is long-range...

Sheppard's ridership is steadily climbing - it's only been running for a few years. You do realize that many of the Metrolinx/MoveOntario/Transit City lines will be comically underutilized for decades if not forever, right? Why does everyone vilify the cost of subways? For what they do, they are *not* more expensive.

 

[RedRocket191]

The draft RTP lumps in BRT/LRT/AGT together. Yet these are all vastly different in capacity and cost. I am wondering how they managed to do their estimates when they didn't consider which technology was appropriate for which corridor.

Supporting documents will outline those. If they aren't up on the Metrolinx website now they will be shortly.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Building in an underdeveloped area would effectively allow the city and developers a blank canvass with which to work. Also, both the developers and the city would benefit from the rise in land values. Ideally, transit construction and development would occur simultaneously.

Bingo.

Moreover - look at the census stats. Toronto's growth is stagnant at best. The 905 is still exploding. If you stop to deal with all of Toronto's problems before dealing with the 905 it will be a mess here by the time you get to it.

Developing in tandem with transit is obviously smart though I can understand it's anathema to Torontonians who want their DRL etc -- and I'm not saying you have no point -- but, as I said above, if you don't get some infrastruture developing in 905 ASAP you'll have a neverending series of messes.

What happens if you bump the Yonge subway down the list while the OMB approves 3,000 condos at Yonge and Steeles? Whatever it is, it's worth than gridlock. These condos aren't pie in the sky - they're on the table, they're at councils, they're at the OMB; they're happening with or without the subway. We're talking about a provincial growth scenario playing out in realtime.

Most of the Metrolinx plan seems good to me and everyone is going to be a bit NIMBY in what they think should be at the top of the list. As someone who has spent most of his life near Steeles (on both sides) the need to extend the subway north of Finch is way, way, way overdue.

I think I agree with every single thing KeithZ said above. People who bash VCC don't seem to understand the opportunity to create something unique in suburbia: A subway and a transit-oriented community for it to serve at the same time. And to do all this on a blank slate of land.

Taal, you're wrong that the development is not transit-oriented --perhaps you haven't seen the 35-storey condos proposed at Jane and 7 -- and even if you were right your argument is circular. If you cancel the subway that land remains and developers will be only too happy to build more single-family homes with three-car garages. Then you'll be only too happy to point out how suburbanites don't want transit.

I'm not saying we can leave Toronto to rot but nothing will ever change if we don't get ahead of the development for a change. No one has stopped to think ahead, across borders over such a long period before and you have to give it some time to play out.

 

[Dan416]

I have no problem with the Yonge line extension into York Region. I have a big problem with the useless Vaughan extension. Up to York U fine, up to Steeles even, fine. But VCC? Seriously? I still don't know how anyone can support that subway extension but not MCC. I'm not saying MCC should be anywhere near the top of the priority list, but it really does need a subway. Guaranteed if there was a referendum, Mississauga would vote for a subway extension to MCC.

Regardless though, the big problems with the Metrolinx/TTC plans are the effing up of Sheppard East and leaving the SRT in place and wanting to make Eglinton SRT. How nonsensical is that? I mean if you want to build Eglinton as LRT and upgradeable to subway in the future, fine. But to make some sort of SRT from the airport to Malvern....huh?

The TTC needs to rationalize it's fleet. And by rationalize, I mean get rid of the SRT entirely of course. Replace the SRT to STC with subway, and beyond there can be served fine by LRT. It's so bloody simple. And don't orphan the Sheppard line for God's sake! That makes even less sense!

Ugh I'm seriously beginning to hope this plan fails now. Let it rot in plan hell until we get a transit commissioner that isn't an LRT fanatic.

 

[kEiThZ]

I have no problem with the Yonge line extension into York Region. I have a big problem with the useless Vaughan extension. Up to York U fine, up to Steeles even, fine. But VCC? Seriously?

See reasoning above. The subway to VCC will create transit friendly development in that area from a blank slate. We don't want to make the mistake of Square One again....

I still don't know how anyone can support that subway extension but not MCC. I'm not saying MCC should be anywhere near the top of the priority list, but it really does need a subway. Guaranteed if there was a referendum, Mississauga would vote for a subway extension to MCC.

They might get a subway if they were willing to fund its construction and its O&M. York is negotiating both right now. They came to the table with money....I don't see why Mississauga can't do the same. Till then....NO SUBWAY FOR YOU! (to paraphrase a certain seinfeld chararcter...) Seriously though, a subway does not seem very high on the list for Mississauga city councillors, so I doubt that they would be willing to divert resources to help build a subway when there are so many other pressing local transit needs in 'sauga right now.

 

[Rainforest]

I suspect this has a lot to do with the impact of improving transit in the burbs. Building the DRL is unlikely to draw new ridership. It's needed to add capacity of course, but in reality with rising gas and parking prices, most Torontonians have no choice but to take the subway and be packed in like sardines during rush hour.

Some will resort to driving into downtown anyway, as paying a fortune for gas and parking is still cheaper than being constantly late for work, due to the inability to squeeze into the subway.

Others will seek employment outside Toronto's downtown. At some point, employers will notice and start moving away ... new location not necessarily being within GTA.