[kEiThZ]

I think this is the worst argument I've ever heard to build a subway to somewhere.

Why so? Can we not imagine a successful co-ordination of transit and development?

That being said, I do disagree with prioritizing that line over other transit needs. But political realities being what they are, we should take what we get....

 

[RedRocket191]

I think we're very lucky that the feds have pledged anything at this point. If you're cornered by a bear and it gives you a chance, you take that chance. You don't poke the bear.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well, perhaps it should run to UTS only, and be named "Scarborough East" LRT, rather than "Scarborough Malvern". Apparently, there is some development potential along Eglinton east of Kennedy and along Kingston Rd.

Regarding the service to Morningside Heights, I wonder if the route that will run from (or via) STC to Malvern, could be extended a little further north-east.

My solution to all this simple....

1) Extend the BD from Kennedy to STC
2) Do the SRT extension using LRT.
3) Run the Scarborough Malvern LRT down Sheppard and route it down the SRT corridor to STC.
4) Service Morningside Heights and the rest of Malvern with buses dropping pax off at MTC.

This would result in no transfers for all those who currently get on at STC and wish to travel downtown. Malvernites would also have the same (BUS-LRT-BD subway) number of transfers or fewer as many folks now using the 131, 132, 133 and the 134 could well walk over to catch either the LRT from MTC to STC or the Sheppard East LRT.

I think that's a fairly common sense suggestion. As a Malvernite, I can't see the point of building an ART Mark II line down Eglinton, all the way to the airport and forcing hundreds of thousands of commuters to transfer at Kennedy for the BD line.

 

[taal]

Such argument for transit only makes sense if you have money to spare and an already well served community ... from a transit point of view. Neither of which are likely ever present. So it most likely makes no sense.

But yes politics trumps all ...

A few comments ... the lack of downtown service as some have pointed out is truly disappointing but it should be taken as a surprise. Although many of us have discussed the downtown relief line it was more of an idea - at least here it seems to be written down on paper ... granted that probably doesn't mean much. At the same time don't forget the new waterfront LRT which is already undergoing on EA process. On top of that there should be another one to the EAST for the new communities there. If we can improve King / Queen streetcars using any means possible that would be the best thing we can do for downtown.

I sense some feel the TTC's heavily LRT dependent solutions (as opposed to subways) is somehow a result of unions or a mentality of no changes; I think if we think back just 5/10 years ago no one in there right mind would propose an LRT over a subway at the TTC. This is a new concept seemingly being adopted by a lot of other transit agencies across the planet. Sure, it may not be the best idea but it's a new one to say the least.

As many have also stated there's not much we didn't know here. What I want to know is when will the plans regarding how to raise the funds be realeased. How much do we know is commited by the provinical / federal goverment at this time?

We know the TTC is well into the EA process on most of the lines and surely some will complete very soon. When will they be given the green light to start construction?

Also, when it says rapid transit on Yonge to Hi-Way 7 is it implying a subway extension or is this actually up in the air? If I could have 2 wishes they would simply be:
1) Scrap the subway extension north of York ... forget Steeles - although it does servce as a good hub - but York is ON Steeles for the most part so give me a break.
2) I really don't understand the logic of this subway extension on Yonge ... maybe to Steeles but even then.
What exactly is the total ridership coming into the finch go/yrt terminal. We know Viva Blue is somewhere around 15K ... My guess would be the grand total (excluding GO busses) so we're taking about YRT + Brampton would be something less then 30K ... maybe even 25K. Many of these routes also wont be completely eliminated by the subway. So why oh why do we need a subway??? What was Sheppard's pre-subway ridership ... low 40K ... and we already consider that a failure ...

 

[Hipster Duck]

I sense some feel the TTC's heavily LRT dependent solutions (as opposed to subways) is somehow a result of unions or a mentality of no changes; I think if we think back just 5/10 years ago no one in there right mind would propose an LRT over a subway at the TTC. This is a new concept seemingly being adopted by a lot of other transit agencies across the planet. Sure, it may not be the best idea but it's a new one to say the least.

On the contrary, I think that LRT was a fad of the 1990s and increasingly fewer transit agencies are implementing them. There are some notable critics of light rail, such as this guy,this guy and this guy, Zimmerman, who was instrumental in shaping the US Federal Transportation Administration's increasing advocacy of BRT over LRT technology, and who is now the urban transport advisor to the World Bank.

Once again, Toronto is rolling ahead with a transportation strategy that is 15 years past its expiry date. It won't destroy us like the Spadina expressway would have, but it will simply waste scarce resources on a service that will only prove to be marginally more effective than the current bus service.

 

[Peepers]

Without getting into the specifics of this 50 Billion Dollar proposal I would just like to say that I HOPE that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past. Years ago the Ontario government spent over $100 Billion to acquire the land underneath Highway 407. The Ontario Government then spent another $1.6 Billion to build the Highway. After spending $102 BILLION to construct Hwy 407 the Province of Ontario (Mike Harris) sold (leased for 99 years) highway 407 to a Spanish consortium for $3.1 Billion - i.e. for about 3 Cents on the Dollar !! (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/407_Express_Toll_Route). There are many implications of this CRIMINAL act.. one of which is the fact that the 407 is and always will be under-utilized. Most of the people who actually paid for Hwy 407 cannot afford to drive on it. As a consequence most people favor the 401 to get across the city. As a result the Province must now spend Millions (perhaps Billions) to widen Hwy 401 (and other parallel roads)

Today I read in the Toronto Star : "The plan, released today by Metrolinx, includes no recommendations for road tolls or other taxes to pay for the transit improvements that are being called the most ambitions of our life time.

The experience of the other cities shows it is best to offer transportation alternatives before asking people to pay new fees, Metrolix chair Rob MacIsaac said.""

It looks like history is about to repeat itself again

 

[Maggie]

Really???????????????.........................When was the last time you visit the water edge?

What open on Sat at Cherry Beach as well last Friday at the Spadina Slip??

What else is taking place on the water edge now????

I take my dog along the lake everyday and ride on the Goodman trail. If you can see anything through the wall of condos please tell what else is there?

10 billion was promised, where are all the improvements its been 6 years?

 

[DavidH]

For anyone else who has been squinting at the low-res maps in the posted version of the RTP, Steve Munro has begun his analysis and has high-res versions of the maps obtained from somewhere or other.

http://stevemunro.ca/?p=1189

Meanwhile, over at the Star, Royson James is pointing out that Metrolinx won't have an easier time asking people for more tax monies in five years. This is never a popular topic, and at least they could have started the conversation with the public now.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/504782

It looks like Metrolinx got "got to". Given that back in June, they were talking very publicly about $2B a year from revenue sources, I can't help but think that the McGuinty government told them to hush up.

So we have a plan, with considerable strengths and considerable weaknesses, but no guaranteed sources of revenue for Metrolinx that can guarantee that they are able to pull it off going forward.

 

[pipolchap]

There is some discussion of finding a way to connect the two together, possibly along Don Mills. Makes sense - the disconnect in service along these streets is one of the weakest parts of Transit City.

Obviously, they are also talking about a spur/extension of Sheppard down to STC (which, I believe, is still to be considered by the EA), and a similar western dip down to the airport in Etobicoke.

Why don't they make use of the existing Sheppard line and run an LRT through the tunnel?

Perhaps it can link up to Finch West along Senlac or the West Don river or Bathurst.

 

[DavidH]

Why don't they make use of the existing Sheppard line and run an LRT through the tunnel?

Good question. The leaked version that the Star had a few weeks ago had the subway being decommissioned and replaced with an LRT, possibly doing exactly as you suggest. And yet it's disappeared, and we now have a plan that leaves a modal split on Sheppard for the next 25 years or more. <sigh>

 

[avatarreb]

Without getting into the specifics of this 50 Billion Dollar proposal I would just like to say that I HOPE that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past. Years ago the Ontario government spent over $100 Billion to acquire the land underneath Highway 407. The Ontario Government then spent another $1.6 Billion to build the Highway. After spending $102 BILLION to construct Hwy 407 the Province of Ontario (Mike Harris) sold (leased for 99 years) highway 407 to a Spanish consortium for $3.1 Billion - i.e. for about 3 Cents on the Dollar !! (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/407_Express_Toll_Route). There are many implications of this CRIMINAL act.. one of which is the fact that the 407 is and always will be under-utilized. Most of the people who actually paid for Hwy 407 cannot afford to drive on it. As a consequence most people favor the 401 to get across the city. As a result the Province must now spend Millions (perhaps Billions) to widen Hwy 401 (and other parallel roads)

Today I read in the Toronto Star : "The plan, released today by Metrolinx, includes no recommendations for road tolls or other taxes to pay for the transit improvements that are being called the most ambitions of our life time.

The experience of the other cities shows it is best to offer transportation alternatives before asking people to pay new fees, Metrolix chair Rob MacIsaac said.""

It looks like history is about to repeat itself again

The 407 fiasco was one of the nails in the coffin of Mike Harris' political career. Somehow I doubt any future government would be too quick to follow that path.

 

[Disparishun]

2) I really don't understand the logic of this subway extension on Yonge ... maybe to Steeles but even then.

Have you been to this stretch of Yonge recently?

 

[taal]

Yes ... particularly North of Steeles ... and if the ridership amounts to 25-30K (i.e. not counting the TTC) how does this merit a subway?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

2) I really don't understand the logic of this subway extension on Yonge ... maybe to Steeles but even then.
What exactly is the total ridership coming into the finch go/yrt terminal. We know Viva Blue is somewhere around 15K ... My guess would be the grand total (excluding GO busses) so we're taking about YRT + Brampton would be something less then 30K ... maybe even 25K. Many of these routes also wont be completely eliminated by the subway. So why oh why do we need a subway??? What was Sheppard's pre-subway ridership ... low 40K ... and we already consider that a failure ...

You're missing the point - I don't understand why people make these complaints focusing on what is there RIGHT NOW. This is why it's called PLANNING.

The entire communting pattern will shift when cars don't have to haul down to Finch, when people don't have to walk or drive a couple of KM to avoid a double fare. Call me biassed because I live nearby but I can't think of too many transit projects which make more sense than extending the Yonge line. Finch has always been an arbitrary terminal and this probably should have been done 20 years ago.

Things are changing on Yonge, with or without a subway (but especially with). A 3,000 unit condo is already at the OMB just north of Steeles and more will follow.

Think about the future, it's what Metrolinx is trying to do.

 

[Disparishun]

Yes ... particularly North of Steeles ... and if the ridership amounts to 25-30K (i.e. not counting the TTC) how does this merit a subway?

YRT ridership on buses coming into Finch subway was about 40,000 in 2006, not counting other transit services (why not?), and notwithstanding the double fare which significantly reduces ridership in the densest southern areas. Southern York Region has continued to grow and to plan growth significantly since that time, including denser development to come such as -- adjacent to the Yonge extension -- the muilti-building developments at the Hy & Zels Plaza, Thornhill Town Centre/Promenade, and Bunker.