[unimaginative2]

30% is an extremely optimistic time savings on a system that will stop at every existing traffic light and most existing stops, replacing a route with higher frequency that very rarely gets stuck in serious traffic congestion.

Ansem has it exactly right.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Streetcar lines? I think you mean LRT lines. There is a difference.

He's trying to make a statement

Not a statement, a reality check. Transfer City is a series of incredibly poor-planned streetcar ROWs, not LRT lines. There's lots of places around the world where LRT lines are suitable and successful but these cases don't apply to Transfer City; Transfer City can't ride on their coattails. Streetcar ROWs are what they are, and what they are firmly not is the best implementation of LRT.

The average speed of the 190 in the afternoon peak is 17.4 km/h, (including the relatively congestion and stop free section between sheppard and STC) the average speed of the sheppard east LRT is expected to be 22-23 km/h. That is about 30%-35% faster. Bus performance will only get worse as traffic gets worse, and buses will not be able to handle the expected demand on sheppard anyway.

Of course there are other routes where LRT would be useful, but the simple fact is we can't built them all at once.

A Rocket route would be extremely fast east of Kennedy (and also would have no turns), fast enough that the average speed could easily creep back up to what the streetcar ROW is projected to be (a figure that, given the TTC's track record running routes like Spadina, could be ambitious). Does the Sheppard LRT 22.5km/hr figure include some modicum of both POP and transit priority? Remember that the Rocket bus does not have these measures, but could, and should. The 190 sees decent levels of turnover that often slow the route down when huge crowds are getting on and off (worsened by the new low floor bus design that really pinches those riding at the back). Of course, we already know that frequencies will be reduced with the Transfer City line, and it is highly negligent to compare travel times without factoring in wait times. This is particularly important west of Kennedy, where even a 5km/hr projected speed difference can be negated by wait times.

It's quite clear that transit on Sheppard east of Agincourt can be dramatically improved with virtually no added costs by switching to a Rocket route...if the city had any real interest in improving transit on Sheppard, that is. They don't. Instead, a streetcar ROW will be built costing hundreds of millions of dollars and it's projected to be no faster than what a Rocket bus could do. 50% ideology, 50% overkill. Capacity is not and never will be an issue on the eastern half of Sheppard (not when at least three other lines are projected to serve the same area) and buses running in mixed traffic are more than sufficient - preferable, even, since they can ensure reliable levels of frequencies and travel times and won't bankrupt the provincial government. Over time, articulated, Viva-style buses could be purchased, further increasing speed due to multiple doors, improving capacity, and reducing operating costs.

Until the Sheppard subway is extended to STC, the 190 can continue to skim riders off the 85 and onto a faster option. I don't think anyone has ever bothered to count how many people actually want or need to travel from Morningside/Meadowvale & Sheppard to Fairview or Yonge & Sheppard, anyway, so why should a billion dollar transit line be run out there to nowhere and for no one? We can't afford that.

 

[Rainforest]

Not very happy with the Sheppard E LRT plan.

On one hand, LRT (even the TTC design) should work better than just adding "rocket" buses. First of all, "rocket" buses would have to co-exist with local service, and hence the frequency of "rockets" will be lower than that of LRT vehicles. With LRT, all vehicles will be as fast as "rocket" buses, at the same time all being "local". Furthermore, streetcars in ROW will be mostly immune to heightened traffic congestion that we are likely to encounter in the future, while express buses in mixed traffic will be affected. And finally, TTC is too depended on buses to cope well with the future spikes in oil price. Converting major bus routes to light rail will have the effect of diversification across the energy sources.

However, looking at this particular route in the context of the whole system, one can notice two major goals that won't be served well by the proposed LRT: improving overall transit in the under-serviced north-eastern area, and enabling fast E-W crosstown trips in the north. Indeed, the LRT line will help those who live or work near Sheppard E. But people whose origin or destination is at Finch, Steeles, Ellesmere etc., won't bother transferring to that line. Rather, they will take their regular bus and head to Yonge subway or to SRT. In case a continuous Sheppard E - Finch W LRT line is created, it would be somewhat more attractive, but that would incur nontrivial extra costs (in the range of hundreds of millions) on top of what is slated for Sheppard E and Finch W LRT lines.

Therefore, ideally I'd like to see a combined subway / LRT solution for the Finch - Sheppard corridor, that includes both extension of the Sheppard subway, and LRT lines at the edges. Unfortunately, that might be hard to squeeze into the 15-year or 25-year plan, due to other priorities and the funding constraints.

But even so ... 700 or 800 M slated for Sheppard E LRT is a nontrivial amount of cash. That could probably fund the extension of Sheppard subway to Warden, and I wonder if that would be a better investment. Such extension would help not just those who live between Don Mills and Warden, but those who travel along Sheppard from locations further east. Moreover, that length of subway would justify the routing of Finch E and Ellesmere buses to the subway terminus (one branch runs from Yonge to Kennedy, another runs from the eastern terminus to Warden and then to subway). Passengers of those routes would get a slightly faster and much more reliable commute, and fewer buses would be needed during the peak.

Beyond the 25-year plan, Sheppard subway could be extended further (west to Downsview, east to Kennedy and perhaps STC). Once it reaches Kennedy, LRT line could be added further east. We can assume that by that time, the section of Sheppard between McCowan and Neilson will host the STC - Malvern light rail. Then, the marginal cost of adding the Kennedy to McCowan section and the eastern section won't be that high, perhaps 300 - 400 M in today's dollars dependent on how far the line goes.

 

[Voltz]

If rocket buses are so great then why does the 85 operate at about the same average speed as the 190? I know that various steps can be taken to improve bus lines, but unless a transit vehicle is separated from traffic then it can only do so much.

Regarding these "dramatically increased wait times", where has the ttc mentioned what the headway's will be? If they are expecting 3000 per hour to use the line them that is 20 LRV's per hour, or one every 3 minutes, or more likely a pair every 6 minutes. That does not seem like much of a wait to me, especially since it will be consistent as it will not be held up by traffic, as does happen today (and will only get worse), I have heard of people waiting for a bus on sheppard for up to 10 to 15 minutes during rush hour.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If rocket buses are so great then why does the 85 operate at about the same average speed as the 190? I know that various steps can be taken to improve bus lines, but unless a transit vehicle is separated from traffic then it can only do so much.

The 85 is not the same speed as the 190 between Don Mills and Kennedy. If the two average route speeds are similar, it is because the 85 includes many kilometres of east Sheppard East pretty much free of congestion (and riders)...the 190 would be even faster over the stretch east of Agincourt.

Regarding these "dramatically increased wait times", where has the ttc mentioned what the headway's will be? If they are expecting 3000 per hour to use the line them that is 20 LRV's per hour, or one every 3 minutes, or more likely a pair every 6 minutes. That does not seem like much of a wait to me, especially since it will be consistent as it will not be held up by traffic, as does happen today (and will only get worse), I have heard of people waiting for a bus on sheppard for up to 10 to 15 minutes during rush hour.

Why put "dramatically increased wait times" in quotes? No one here said this. Why not respond to my actual post? I did say that a potentially marginal faster vehicle speed can easily be negated by increased wait times, particularly for short trips. 6 minute waits can result in slower travel times if frequency was previously 3 minutes. Of course, there's also absolutely no reason to believe the TTC is capable of delivering on its promises. 10-15 minute waits for buses on Sheppard are the exception, not the rule, quite obviously. The Sheppard bus works fine east of Agincourt and "fixing" it with a streetcar ROW is an incredible waste of money with no foreseeable benefits.

 

[W. K. Lis]

...

POP is coming, so it will speed loading for any vehicle within 416 let alone the 905.
...

The problem with POP are the able-bodied idiots who exit only through the front doors of buses and streetcars; Even if there are no obstructions, they exit through the front doors, delaying the passengers who want to enter. Second problem are those who on the POP routes would enter only through the front doors, even though they have passes or transfers. Same problem on buses even with unobstructed center doors. This is a pet peeve of mine with some passengers.

At least with the designs of many versions of LRV on the market, the doors are away from the driver. We'll have to wait and see if the closet doors to the front are the most crowded.

 

[Voltz]

The 85 is not the same speed as the 190 between Don Mills and Kennedy. If the two average route speeds are similar, it is because the 85 includes many kilometres of east Sheppard East pretty much free of congestion (and riders)...the 190 would be even faster over the stretch east of Agincourt.



Why put "dramatically increased wait times" in quotes? No one here said this. Why not respond to my actual post? I did say that a potentially marginal faster vehicle speed can easily be negated by increased wait times, particularly for short trips. 6 minute waits can result in slower travel times if frequency was previously 3 minutes. Of course, there's also absolutely no reason to believe the TTC is capable of delivering on its promises. 10-15 minute waits for buses on Sheppard are the exception, not the rule, quite obviously. The Sheppard bus works fine east of Agincourt and "fixing" it with a streetcar ROW is an incredible waste of money with no foreseeable benefits.

The 190 also includes the section between kennedy and STC that has no stops and is mostly congestion free, this is about 40% of the routes length, so it not the rocket that it seems. Ridership out at morningside is not as low as some think, but of course it does not require a LRT line, and I am not completely convinced that it can't go that far, especially since they are, and were, planning expensive subways where there are not absolutely needed, so why should an entire LRT line not be considered if part of it is questionable?

I was not referring to your post, just the general mood among the pervious few.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

The 190 also includes the section between kennedy and STC that has no stops and is mostly congestion free, this is about 40% of the routes length, so it not the rocket that it seems. Ridership out at morningside is not as low as some think, but of course it does not require a LRT line, and I am not completely convinced that it can't go that far, especially since they are, and were, planning expensive subways where there are not absolutely needed, so why should an entire LRT line not be considered if part of it is questionable?

I was not referring to your post, just the general mood among the pervious few.

You're inaccurately paraphrasing the general mood, and you're dishing out red herrings. Going from a 2 minute wait to a 4 minute wait is a "dramatic" 100% increase but it's just 2 more minutes. Still, it only takes like grade 2 math skills to figure out that even a minute or two of added wait time will not help and could even lengthen travel times, which is absolutely unacceptable. But, hey, travel time is just the public's number one concern re: transit, so I guess it's not important.

The 190 is visibly faster than the 85 where they overlap and that's the only thing that matters. The difference between the 190 and the 85 should the Rocket route be continued for the full length of Sheppard would be quite dramatic, equalling the promises of the Transfer City line without a price tag of almost a billion dollars. Ridership on the 85 does plummet out east, but it would rise if Rocket service was added - or if the 190 replaced the 85 outright. The 190 has been a great success, improving transit on Sheppard in the interim before the subway is extended. There's nothing more expensive than an almost billion dollar transit line that's *completely* useless.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

The problem with POP are the able-bodied idiots who exit only through the front doors of buses and streetcars; Even if there are no obstructions, they exit through the front doors, delaying the passengers who want to enter. Second problem are those who on the POP routes would enter only through the front doors, even though they have passes or transfers. Same problem on buses even with unobstructed center doors. This is a pet peeve of mine with some passengers.

At least with the designs of many versions of LRV on the market, the doors are away from the driver. We'll have to wait and see if the closet doors to the front are the most crowded.

The TTC's tender for new LRVs, and the design of all Transit City platforms, will be to allow for efficient POP/all-door boarding. There will be no interaction between the driver and the passenger, since they'll be in separate cabs. The reason why POP doesn't work well now is because it's inconsistently applied, and even on Queen Street, operators only open all doors when they're at a busy stop.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If POP becomes standard, people will soon learn to efficiently use multiple doors.

 

[Kiwi]

Today in the Spec a councillor is suggesting that Hamilton use the $100 million Hamilton Future Fund towards infrastructure for 2009. Hamilton could see construction for LRT sooner.

 

[Brandon716]

Transit City has began to grow on me as an idea, but not its entire implementation. I still think Eglinton should be a subway, I think Sheppard should be completed, and I think that Scarborough Town Centre should be connected with either Eglinton Crosstown, or Sheppard completed, or both.

I think its absolutely asinine that they want to extend the Sheppard Subway with an LRT line, it really is a pointless transfer. For someone to get from East Sheppard to downtown you'd have no less than 3 transfers. The LRT on East Sheppard, the Sheppard Subway, then the Yonge Subway. Or a future East Sheppard LRT-Don Mills LRT-Kennedy TTC-Yonge TTC subway transfer hell.

I think Transit City can meet Metrolinx in the middle and start a system everyone can agree on. The idea of running light rail cars with their own rights of way isn't bad, but certain areas really need new TTC subway service. And for Sheppard, it just needs to be completed.

 

[lead82]

I completely agree. Sheppard should be completed as originally designed from Downsview to Scarborough Centre. Only then will it fulfill its role as a fast cross-town route to connect North York to Scarborough without transferring. The TTC planners need to realize that just because LRT is cheaper does not make it the solution for all routes. Sure Sheppard west of Yonge has lower ridership, but it has decent potential as the streets is already experiencing 'Avenue-ization' west of Bathurst. As for east of Don Mills, the subway just makes more sense than forcing people to transfer. A transfer at Don Mills will be awful, a transfer at Consumers will hopefully be planned to be easy and across platforms according to Adam Giambrone, but it is still a transfer.

According to Adam, there aren't many people going between Scarborough or North York or to York University, based on travel patterns in the census. However, what this data doesn't show is latent demand that would be satisfied if a proper connection is built. As the saying goes, if you built it, they will ride it. I think a subway ride from Scarborough Centre to Downsview or even York University would be well used.

 

[Brandon716]

Considering how many businesses are along the 401 corridor, and considering that bus systems would be reworked to stop at Sheppard stations along the way to all the office parks and homes along the entire route... And the expansions that could occur in terms of new condo towers and etc... I fail to see how Sheppard wouldn't, when fully developed, be totally appropriate for a full fledged subway along the entire route.

 

[GTS]

One thing I noticed that they designed well on the Sheppard subway is thathe stations are only built for 4-car train lengths. I imagine that the Sheppard subway wouldn't need a 6-car train for a long while yet and these station sizes seem appropriate for the area. I know that their are corridors in TO that needed a subway built more then Sheppard but I think since the city has already invested over a $Billion in the line they should finish this line since they already have a sizable commitment in this piece of infrastructure.

I don't ride the 190 regularly but the times that I have ridden it has been quite heavily used. Like I said I don't know if it is always that busy but, if it is the Sheppard line to STC would be justifiable. This line also has the potential of linking two urban centers- Scarborough Town Center area with North York Center area. I read an article that said that the North York Center area has a fairly high office vacancy rate. I think more business would move to both the STC area and North York area if they were serviced by a crosstown completed Sheppard line. The tax revenue that could be generated from this increased business would help pay for this transit developement.

These are just personal hopes I have. I appreciate all of these transit plans especially the electric rail plans of a good subway as well as LRT. I am from Vancouver so I hope that my new city of TO also brings back trolley buses for some of it's routes. I hope more and more of our transit goes electric to help our atmoshere as well as our economy as fuel prices rise. I also hope Hydro One phases out Nanticoke and the other coal fired electrical generating plants to help our atmosphere as well but I save that rant for another thread I am on.