[MisterF]

Which is why we should correct the longstanding issues first, before we move on to putting in transit for new developments (that haven't happened yet) and thereby rubbing the inequities in anyone's nose.

- Paul

The East Bayfront is developing as we speak. Besides, if we use that logic then every transit project in the city would stop until the DRL is built. That's obviously a terrible idea.

Transit expansion doesn't always happen in the order we want it to. But stopping one project won't make the project you favour happen any faster.

 

[drum118]

Which is why we should correct the longstanding issues first, before we move on to putting in transit for new developments (that haven't happened yet) and thereby rubbing the inequities in anyone's nose.

- Paul

Not really since East Bay was approved in 2008 and then Mayor Miller was to have new cars on 509 in 2007 as a selling point for East Bay.

Having transit going in first for a new development area isn't nothing new and has happen before. I have buses running in my new subdivision 3 months after I move in and only a dozen or so house out of 500 were built.

The 2004 Master Plan for the Waterfront that was approved in 2006 call for high order of transit then. There isn't anything stopping the building of 2 or more lines at the same time other than money. The DRL has been on the books so long and shows the poor thinking of council related to transit in any shape or form as well using the wrong technology.

What was plan for the waterfront back in 2004 doesn't even come close to what been look at today, let along down the road.

By having transit in first is a clear message that you don't need a car when you move in and allows developers to reduce the parking requirement for X project to 50% or less.

 

[Filip]

In the interest of fairness across parts of the city - East Bayfront should have to wait every bit as long for its transit as Humber Bay has waited (and is still waiting) for its transit. The first big condos (Marina Del Ray IIRC) went up at the Humber in what - 1998ish?

The theory that you build infrastructure as development begins, so it's there when needed, is fine but is badly abused in this city. If we are going to insist on that, there is catching up to do.

- Paul

Marina del rey went up in 1987

 

[Filip]

The East Bayfront is developing as we speak. Besides, if we use that logic then every transit project in the city would stop until the DRL is built. That's obviously a terrible idea.

Transit expansion doesn't always happen in the order we want it to. But stopping one project won't make the project you favour happen any faster.

Dude. Higher order transit to humber bay has been planned since 1989.

How about the east bay front take a back seat for a development heavy area that is starved for transit.

 

[MisterF]

Dude. Higher order transit to humber bay has been planned since 1968.

How about the east bay front take a back seat for a development heavy area that is starved for transit.

And higher order transit on Queen Street has been planned since 1910. Yonge-Bloor has had relief planned since 1968. Demanding that development and transit expansion in other parts of the city "take a back seat" accomplishes nothing.

 

[ssiguy2]

All these LRT lines are fine {especially Eglinton} but the real game changer is going to be RER and thank god it's QP doing the work and not Toronto or nothing would have even started construction yet.

RER could easily be carrying more passengers than all the current subways of Toronto but it will all depend on fare/integration and/or pricing.

 

[Filip]

And higher order transit on Queen Street has been planned since 1910. Yonge-Bloor has had relief planned since 1968. Demanding that development and transit expansion in other parts of the city "take a back seat" accomplishes nothing.

I assume you'd then be ok to let Ward 6 keep the roughly $70Mm hbs sends to the city in property taxes annually? I mean since neighbourhoods that don't exist yet need transit before those who do... why not?

 

[DopeyFish]

All these LRT lines are fine {especially Eglinton} but the real game changer is going to be RER and thank god it's QP doing the work and not Toronto or nothing would have even started construction yet.

RER could easily be carrying more passengers than all the current subways of Toronto but it will all depend on fare/integration and/or pricing.

RER isn't going to change anything for anyone in Lakeshore Village (still waiting on that kipling stop), and likely HBS if Metrolinx doesn't make a stop at Park Lawn. Transit is so poorly planned in this area. No proper linkage to hurontario is dumb, too.

 

[MisterF]

I assume you'd then be ok to let Ward 6 keep the roughly $70Mm hbs sends to the city in property taxes annually? I mean since neighbourhoods that don't exist yet need transit before those who do... why not?

Every neighbourhood with poor transit pays property taxes. Your point?

 

[nfitz]

Today the the East Bayfront has a school, office, and condo.

Oh, I missed that. Which level and board? TDSB seems to be sending all to Market Lane PS and Jarvis CI - with some of the new buildings getting bused to Riverdale.

Does anyone know why the Metrolinx RTP only has a by 2041 plan and not a 2031 plan? Did we pass the point where new plans will not be able to be completed by 2031

the 2008 plan used the 2031 population estimates.

Not surprising the 2018 plan would be using the 2041 estimates that the province has now released.

 

[BMO]

Yes, finally someone puts Sheppard West extension in. I don't doubt it's not going to have the highest ridership, but the flexibility it will afford with storing trains and providing redundancy to the system will be worth it, IMO.

 

[toaster29]

East Bayfront will generate major ridership for the LRT that runs through it. It's not just residential in that area, but also office and institutional uses, which generate more ridership. It will have huge density too. Trying to serve that with buses would be a bad joke. That's not to say that Humber Bay Shores doesn't badly need better transit, but you could say that about a lot of the city, including downtown.

Attacking one part of the city to try to benefit another part is a very Fordian move. Attitudes like that only make things worse.

I think people are posting comparisons of the regions so as to justify which area should be prioritized for rapid transit based on factual data. I hardly see that as an attack or Fordian. In fact, your position comes off as more straw-man fallacy-like, painting those of us presenting why we think HBS deserves rapid transit as Fordian.

 

[crs1026]

Humber Bay has three things: a) existing density and a ridership base that already justifies LRT b) additional growth coming imminently (when the Christies' site dispute is resolved) and c) has waited a very long time. Bayfront has only one of these - (b). Seems to me that on a fact based comparison, the score is 3-1.

By late 2018, central Etobicoke will be automobile hell, as the Six Points construction will be mid project with the new roads not in place yet. South Etobicoke is already transit hell. There are a huge number of votes to be won by stoking the fires of discontent in Etobicoke. One doesn't have to play off Etobicoke against the rest of the City. One can continue to woo the east end based on the traditional Ford line, while also arguing that more recently Etobicoke has also gone to hell in a handbasket under Tory. The objective reality doesn't matter, the mud will stick.

I can't imagine Ford supporting LRT to Humber Bay. He will likely just blame the Province for not moving on the Park Lawn GO front. That alone might buy him the Humber Bay vote if nothing else is done.

I don't like the Ford politic, but neither do I want to see him scoop up new votes in the west end. So based on both objective merit and political impact, I would say get on with some solution to Humber Bay. Personally I don't feel it has to be a new LRT line, but at the least it ought to be an extension of the "experimental" no- autos transit-priority zone on King all the way from Spadina to Roncy, with autos excluded and transit priority applied on the King to Queensway left turn, and a new route running Park Lawn loop to downtown. Maybe an extended 514? Ford would definitely oppose all that, and that opposition would likely turn Humber Bay voters back to Tory.

We've probably digressed into something that belongs in another thread, but it's an honest digression. Wouldn't be UT if that didn't happen now and then.

Paul

 

[MisterF]

I think people are posting comparisons of the regions so as to justify which area should be prioritized for rapid transit based on factual data. I hardly see that as an attack or Fordian. In fact, your position comes off as more straw-man fallacy-like, painting those of us presenting why we think HBS deserves rapid transit as Fordian.

Nope. I'm responding specifically to the post that said we should "Send some articulated buses from union and call it a day. When you're a 15 min walk from downtown you don't need higher order transit like other neighbourhoods do." Referring to East Bayfront of course. That and the suggestion that East Bayfront should "take a back seat". Sounds pretty similar to Ford's "the downtown people have enough subways already".

Regarding your last sentence, I never suggested that HBS shouldn't have rapid transit or that thinking it should is Fordian. I simply showed that HBS is one of many parts of the city that should have rapid transit but don't and that the lack of RT shouldn't stop other projects from proceeding. If you're going to call someone out for using straw men, it helps if you're not using one yourself.

We've probably digressed into something that belongs in another thread, but it's an honest digression. Wouldn't be UT if that didn't happen now and then.

Paul

Perhaps, but it happens. To be clear, of course Humber Bay should have rapid transit. But fighting the East Bayfront LRT (send some buses and call it a day) doesn't help. When transit money is being spent, each project builds momentum for the next one. By the same token, when the political winds change and transit projects start getting cancelled, a lot of them tend to get cancelled. People calling for nothing but buses in the East Bayfront should be careful what they wish for.

 

[11th]

Yes, finally someone puts Sheppard West extension in. I don't doubt it's not going to have the highest ridership, but the flexibility it will afford with storing trains and providing redundancy to the system will be worth it, IMO.

That at the least turns line 4 into a line to somewhere. Connecting it to line 1-west is practically an extension to York University.