[kEiThZ]

You can't remove from politics from transit planning, without taking it all away. And by that I mean uploading local transit as well and giving Metrolinx the right to levy taxes and fees in the GTA. Anything less and you'll have interference from whomever controls the purse or has authority over an operating agency.

They should have made Metrolinx a TfL type of agency and given the agency its own cabinet minister (separate from Transport).

 

[Leo_Chan]

Same logic as TYSSE. Only this is cheaper....

There's a difference between Highway 7 and Kirby Road. 1-2 km spacing subway vs 2+ km spacing

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This ignores the large amount of dense greenfield development scheduled to go into those fields around Kirby GO, but yes, it still isn't exactly a necessary station.

Growth Plan minimum density requirements for greenfield development have basically killed the type of development on the other side of Keele from the GO station that exists today. The Greenfield stuff is going to have to be a lot of towns, stacked towns, and apartments to meet the minimum 80 people / hectare set out in the Growth Plan.

https://www.vaughan.ca/projects/policy_planning_projects/General Documents/New Community Areas Block 27 and 41/POH Open_House_Presentation_April 5_2017.pdf

View attachment 119353

The two stations I would have built that weren't included are Park Lawn and Concord / Highway 7. Kirby would have been removed.

I'm really not receptive to arguments that building transit will spur the type of development we want, especially when there are so many rapidly growing areas of the GTA that have been decades starved for transit.

So many times we've seen development used as an argument to build transit, and so many times we've seen them spectacularly fail to meet targets. How about we spend this money on areas that already have the demand to justify their existence?

Furthermore, I have zero faith in the Ontario government to follow and enforce growth plans. Ontario isn't knowing for for sticking to a plan, especially not when a new government is formed. The last thing we need is for GO Transit to become an even greater vessel for subsiding sprawl, which has been its primary function for all its existence (see GO Transit's massive parking lots)

 

[innsertnamehere]

The point wasn't that it was entirely justifiable, but simply more so that there will be more than just what is there today.

 

[44 North]

Here's a link to the Metrolinx presentation: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/aboutus/publications/AMO Presentation - Aug 14 2017.pdf

Thanks for the link. So I'm now noticing that the images Munro posted last week weren't from the preliminary draft, but from the official report. Not going to go into the other stuff you guys are talking about, rather am continuing to dwell on this map which is a gripe of mine (since it stands out like a sore thumb). This shouldn't come across as OCD or anything. Say I was an avg Joe in the GTHA, what would my takeaway be from looking at this map? It'd probably be that York Region is the largest region by area in the GTHA, has the largest population, is seeing the largest net population increase, will have the largest future population, and is somehow the unspoken centre of the GTHA (thus requiring a larger circle and unique colour than the rest). But since none of that is true, one wonders if there's an intent? Couldn't be a fluke. Did Del Duca demand it like he's done with other things?

As a comparison, the following map is from the Star from over a decade ago (showing 2006-2031 pop estimates vs Mlinx's 2011-2041). I always loved it, and IMO it shows the original intent of Metrolinx's lazy and possibly biased foray into stats-based map-making. We see growth, we see net numbers, gross numbers, stats, and things make sense.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Thanks for the link. So I'm now noticing that the images Munro posted last week weren't from the preliminary draft, but from the official report. Not going to go into the other stuff you guys are talking about, rather am continuing to dwell on this map which is a gripe of mine (since it stands out like a sore thumb). This shouldn't come across as OCD or anything. Say I was an avg Joe in the GTHA, what would my takeaway be from looking at this map? It'd probably be that York Region is the largest region by area in the GTHA, has the largest population, is seeing the largest net population increase, will have the largest future population, and is somehow the unspoken centre of the GTHA (thus requiring a larger circle and unique colour than the rest). But since none of that is true, one wonders if there's an intent? Couldn't be a fluke. Did Del Duca demand it like he's done with other things?

View attachment 119392

As a comparison, the following map is from the Star from over a decade ago (showing 2006-2031 pop estimates vs Mlinx's 2011-2041). I always loved it, and IMO it shows the original intent of Metrolinx's lazy and possibly biased foray into stats-based map-making. We see growth, we see net numbers, gross numbers, stats, and things make sense.

View attachment 119394

Relevant XKCD:

 

[kEiThZ]

The last thing we need is for GO Transit to become an even greater vessel for subsiding sprawl, which has been its primary function for all its existence (see GO Transit's massive parking lots)

Ironically, this might be how electrification survives a tory government. At this point developers need GO to improve or selling profitable SFH further and further from Toronto is becoming a tougher and tougher proposition.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Tories ask auditor general to investigate new GO stations

 

[crs1026]

I think the issue with Park Lawn is more that people there just won't take the Go Train. Humber Bay doesn't really seem to me like a place full of people commuting into downtown, considering that the only option right now is a two-streetcar or three-streetcar trip. I think it's more likely that people there are commuting out of the city (or at least away from the lake), and want to live somewhere that's by the lake and has good & relatively un-congested highway access.

I'd differ with your analysis. It's an area that has grown from non residential to very dense residential. I'm sure I could fill the platform of Kirby station twice over with all the Humber Bay people who would use the GO train - myself being one. The problems for ML are a) The current Mimico serves an established ridership, and GO had gone on record as cooperating with development at that location b) the existing tracks and interlockings sit right where the new platform would be, so it's a particularly expensive project and c) the Gardiner overpass would need to be reworked, and that's more complexity and cost.

Much as I deplore DD's fiddling with Kirby, I'm not sure that ML's rating of Park Lawn was all that detached and fact-based either. It's hugely problemmatic for them to build in that spot. I'm not sure ML can offer a fact-based perspective without bumping into their own conflicts of interest.

- Paul

 

[Amare]

Tories ask auditor general to investigate new GO stations

To be honest this should become a full fledged scandal before the election to force Del Duca's hand because his games have gone on long enough. For that matter, Metrolinx has been playing games for long enough and this may be a way to pressure the Liberals to change the structure of the board.

I'd differ with your analysis. It's an area that has grown from non residential to very dense residential. I'm sure I could fill the platform of Kirby station twice over with all the Humber Bay people who would use the GO train - myself being one. The problems for ML are a) The current Mimico serves an established ridership, and GO had gone on record as cooperating with development at that location b) the existing tracks and interlockings sit right where the new platform would be, so it's a particularly expensive project and c) the Gardiner overpass would need to be reworked, and that's more complexity and cost.

Additionally Humber Bay's creation is a by-product of the Places to Grow Act which specializes at creating higher densities while the province fails to build the infrastructure needed to support it. Milton is another example of where the exact same thing is happening but yet the province refuses to rectify the issue. In other words, they had a large hand in creating the problem so it's time they cough up the money to fix them.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Tories ask auditor general to investigate new GO stations

To be honest this should become a full fledged scandal before the election to force Del Duca's hand because his games have gone on long enough. For that matter, Metrolinx has been playing games for long enough and this may be a way to pressure the Liberals to change the structure of the board.

This oughta be an investigation into Metrolinx as a whole. Metrolinx has been involved in a while set of shady decisions: Scarborough Subway, UPX, the 2014 campaign ads and now this GO scandal. We seemingly can't even trust Metrolinx's recommendations, since those are being crafted with Liberal party interests in mind. I want to know to what extent the Liberals have been interfering at ML.

I ultimately hope this can be the catalyst to decouple Metrolinx from the Provincial government.

 

[DSCToronto]

In Star today:

Past delivery delays tank Bombardier’s bid for New York City subway contract


In a letter sent to employees, the president of the company’s Americas division said past poor performance and delays “sealed the fate of our bid.”

 

[BurlOak]

This oughta be an investigation into Metrolinx as a whole. Metrolinx has been involved in a while set of shady decisions: Scarborough Subway, UPX, the 2014 campaign ads and now this GO scandal. We seemingly can't even trust Metrolinx's recommendations, since those are being crafted with Liberal party interests in mind. I want to know to what extent the Liberals have been interfering at ML.

I ultimately hope this can be the catalyst to decouple Metrolinx from the Provincial government.

Much of this was known at last election. Similar to the gas plant scandal, it took years to fully uncover, and when it they argued it was old news and things had changed.
There is also the AG report from a few years back that the the Liberals wasted (I think it was) $37B. They deserved to lose in 2007 but have survive with the old adage, "better the devil you know, then the average person you don't ".

 

[kEiThZ]

They deserved to lose in 2007 but have survive with the old adage, "better the devil you know, then the average person you don't "

I've said this to other people. If the Tories were anything like their UK counterparts they'd clean up. Instead, we get a PC party full of rural hicks who are clueless about the issues that 80% of the province living in cities cares about.

They think tax cuts are a solution to everything. Like I care about pennies saved when I'm sitting in traffic for 2 hrs a day or have to watch 3 trains go by before I get on.

It's actually remarkable that the only right leaning party can't win given Liberal ineptitude. And that says more about the PCs than the voters.

If all they pledged was to balance the books and run the government more efficiently while improving public services they'd win. Instead, they keep thinking the Mike Harris approach will win them power, in a province that has 2 million more residents and has seen the GTA's share of population grow massively since he left.

If Brown wins, I think his rural base and rural instincts will make the Tories unpopular enough to keep them out for another 15 years, after just one term.

 

[Filip]

I'd differ with your analysis. It's an area that has grown from non residential to very dense residential. I'm sure I could fill the platform of Kirby station twice over with all the Humber Bay people who would use the GO train - myself being one. The problems for ML are a) The current Mimico serves an established ridership, and GO had gone on record as cooperating with development at that location b) the existing tracks and interlockings sit right where the new platform would be, so it's a particularly expensive project and c) the Gardiner overpass would need to be reworked, and that's more complexity and cost.

Much as I deplore DD's fiddling with Kirby, I'm not sure that ML's rating of Park Lawn was all that detached and fact-based either. It's hugely problemmatic for them to build in that spot. I'm not sure ML can offer a fact-based perspective without bumping into their own conflicts of interest.

- Paul

The majority of this existing Mimico ridership is hbs people. You think the 300 riders a day surrounding Mimico are driving its ridership?

Metrolinx and the government are corrupt as usual... no surprise here.