[hbl33]

It is RFID, and since they are already wiring their fareboxes for that strange metropass validator system they were talking about last week it should reduce the overall cost of installing Presto. The main stumbling block is that the existing fareboxes do not have any electric components at all.

The validator itself is a bolt-on unit, so the two systems will coexist just fine.

I really hate the sound of RFID. Not only the rumours regarding the privacy issues, but it would only bring the rise of so-called "FREEDOM FIGHTERS" would try bringing up something inexcuseable to prevent the implement of these features into fareboxes. However, the changes to transit seems promising for first time in GTA.

 

[MetroMan]

It is RFID, and since they are already wiring their fareboxes for that strange metropass validator system they were talking about last week it should reduce the overall cost of installing Presto. The main stumbling block is that the existing fareboxes do not have any electric components at all.

The validator itself is a bolt-on unit, so the two systems will coexist just fine.

So they can keep the existing turnstiles? What's this Metropass validator system you mentioned? I've been tuned out for a while (started walking/biking more).

 

[RedRocket191]

I really hate the sound of RFID. Not only the rumours regarding the privacy issues, but it would only bring the rise of so-called "FREEDOM FIGHTERS" would try bringing up something inexcuseable to prevent the implement of these features into fareboxes. However, the changes to transit seems promising for first time in GTA.

They won't contain any identifiable information if you don't want it to. You don't have to register your card, but if you do then they will be able to replace the balance if it is lost or stolen.

So they can keep the existing turnstiles? What's this Metropass validator system you mentioned? I've been tuned out for a while (started walking/biking more).

Yes they can keep existing turnstiles. The one at union station is an example of how it can be bolted on.

Last week the TTC announced that they will be adding metropass and token validators to their surface vehicle fleet. Instead of showing your pass to the driver you will have to swipe the card and the same sort of computer found in some turnstiles will decide if the card is real or not. The computer will also check to see if the tokens are authentic or not. They claim that this is a proactive step to be ahead when the new holograms are cracked. The modifications needed to add this functionality to buses should be very close to what's needed to support presto readers on surface vehicles.

 

[Paleo]

Last week the TTC announced that they will be adding metropass and token validators to their surface vehicle fleet. Instead of showing your pass to the driver you will have to swipe the card and the same sort of computer found in some turnstiles will decide if the card is real or not. The computer will also check to see if the tokens are authentic or not. They claim that this is a proactive step to be ahead when the new holograms are cracked. The modifications needed to add this functionality to buses should be very close to what's needed to support presto readers on surface vehicles.

Aren't those just self-contained units that only need to be connected to power systems? RFID fare system would need to be at every entry/exit point and be wired together and interfaced with a communications system. On the surface it would seem to be quite a bit more work.

 

[RedRocket191]

Aren't those just self-contained units that only need to be connected to power systems? RFID fare system would need to be at every entry/exit point and be wired together and interfaced with a communications system. On the surface it would seem to be quite a bit more work.

You only have to tap in with Presto on flat fare systems, so they only need to be at the front door, connected to that very same power supply.

 

[Swarley]

I dunno if this was known before, but seems like the TTC just realized they'd lose out on a lot of money by not implementing PRESTO:

While the above outlines some of the specific potential benefits from the TTC joining PRESTO, there is an important and broader context within which this issue needs to be considered. Over the past few years, the Province has implemented specific programs to provide a range of funding for transit and the TTC. The funding for some of these programs is, however, contingent upon TTC participation in the PRESTO system (i.e. CSIF; gas tax). In addition, the Province has also stated that the adoption of the PRESTO farecard system will be a requirement for new transit projects (i.e. Transit City; subway extensions). The reality is that through these various programs, there is a significant amount of funding for various transit initiatives that is linked to TTC’s participation in PRESTO. If the TTC did not join PRESTO, it could put funding for these programs at risk. The decision for the TTC to join PRESTO, therefore, has potential implications that go well beyond the smartcard system itself.

Since Transit City is being funded entirely by the province IIRC, then the TTC basically has no choice but to put PRESTO on the whole system.

 

[DavidH]

I dunno if this was known before, but seems like the TTC just realized they'd lose out on a lot of money by not implementing PRESTO:


Since Transit City is being funded entirely by the province IIRC, then the TTC basically has no choice but to put PRESTO on the whole system.

This was reported a few months ago when the Minister of Transportation sent letters to all agencies with projects funded in the current wave of Metrolinx items. The TTC has taken a while to accept that it has no choice but has gotten there.

Keep in mind, though, that the TTC has accepted that a farecard system is needed for fraud-prevention reasons for some time, starting around the time that adult tickets were discontinued, but the form of that fare card system was still in some dispute. The idea that the province would fund development of a second fare card system was simply a nonstarter but that didn't stop the TTC from going around on it for a while. It's nice to see them recognizing that PRESTO is happening and they need to be a part of it.

 

[Paleo]

You only have to tap in with Presto on flat fare systems, so they only need to be at the front door, connected to that very same power supply.

I was thinking more along the lines of all-door loading on all surface vehicles but cross fare-boundary collection would be an issue too I would imagine.

 

[DavidH]

I was thinking more along the lines of all-door loading on all surface vehicles but cross fare-boundary collection would be an issue too I would imagine.

All door loading means POP checks on all vehicles since the driver would not be able to verify successful tapping by all passengers. TTC will have to greatly expand POP for the new streetcars plus TC lines, but are they prepared to go to *every* vehicle? I doubt it. The cost/benefit ratio would not be there.

 

[RedRocket191]

There's nothing to stop fare inspectors with handheld validation machines to allow for all-door boarding at stops with heavy ridership. Dufferin and Lansdowne station comes to mind.

This is how Brampton Transit plans to run acceleride. It won't be POP, at least not from day one.

 

[DavidH]

There's nothing to stop fare inspectors with handheld validation machines to allow for all-door boarding at stops with heavy ridership. Dufferin and Lansdowne station comes to mind.

Routes with heavy ridership, yes - but not on every route, so do you want to equip every bus with readers at the rear, and then get into problems of telling people when they should use them and when they shouldn't? I would foresee this causing lots of additional extraneous charges leading to customer service headaches.

I think it's more likely that handheld *readers* (not validation, but actual charging of rides) would be used by staff at rear doors at stops that warrant it. This would likely be during peak periods only, of course.

But yeah, there are lots of ways this can be done. One big benefit of Presto is it does give you a POP capability, any time and any where it is needed.

 

[RedRocket191]

I think it's more likely that handheld *readers* (not validation, but actual charging of rides) would be used by staff at rear doors at stops that warrant it. This would likely be during peak periods only, of course.

Yes, this is what I meant. Roving inspectors who follow the crowds and deduct fares with handheld devices.

 

[DavidH]

Interesting, Oakville Transit is going to be testing PRESTO with a loyalty program:

* Rides 1 to 8, single adult fare ($3)
* Ride 9, 50% off single adult fare ($1.50)
* Ride 10, no cost
* Rides 11 to 35, adult ticket fare ($2.55)
* Rides 36+, no cost

This is quite an interesting structure since it automatically provides a discount for moderate users (first ten rides if you use them automatically are discounted to match the ticket fare, and an effective monthly passes automatically kicks in. Hopefully this is successful; anything that eliminates the need for users to do calculations to determine whether a monthly pass makes sense for a given month is a good thing.

Details are at: http://www.oakvilletransit.ca/prestofaq.htm

 

[kEiThZ]

I find that overly complicated. Why can't they make it, every 10th ride free for example?

Right now for 35 rides the cost is:
8X3 + 1.5 + 25X2.55 = 89.25 or 2.55/ride

Why not have 2.79 per ride and every tenth ride free? Or even better 3.19 per ride and every 5th ride free. That's far more marketable than 9th ride half off, tenth ride free, rides 36+ free.

ps. The 36+ free part is okay.

 

[DavidH]

I find that overly complicated. Why can't they make it, every 10th ride free for example?

Right now for 35 rides the cost is:
8X3 + 1.5 + 25X2.55 = 89.25 or 2.55/ride

Why not have 2.79 per ride and every tenth ride free? Or even better 3.19 per ride and every 5th ride free. That's far more marketable than 9th ride half off, tenth ride free, rides 36+ free.

ps. The 36+ free part is okay.

Well, they are just testing, so the final version might be different. But this does make sense if you look at where they are going in terms of fare policy:

- infrequent riders pay the normal "cash" price
- automatic discount to "ticket" price for regular riders
- very frequent riders get "automatic" monthly pass

Of course, this is similar to the GO implementation in that infrequent riders who buy a bunch of tickets and use them up over months will pay more. But that's a policy choice, and I think there is some sense to it. Give the discounts to people who are regular riders, not to people who ride once in a long while.