[Megaton327]

That is not the wording of the bylaw - I don't see the wording "anywhere" anywhere. That's your interpretation. If your interpretation was true, then you could board or transfer to a downtown express using only a Metropass, rather than paying the surcharge. Or perhaps you think that there's nothing in the By-laws that force you to pay a surcharge on the downtown express lines?

The wording 'anywhere' does not have to be there. How many times do I have to repeat this? YOU are saying that the bylaw is of the form 'that the TTC accepts on that particular vehicle in that exact circumstance' which I also do not see anywhere. Since it does not specify, it says 'acceptable to the TTC'. The TTC in general accepts Presto if it accepts it anywhere.

My interpretation has nothing to do with downtown express. That would be covered under 2.1. You're arrogantly putting words in my mouth, and you're far off base. I think nothing of the sort, and I'm capable of speaking for myself, thank you very much.

 

[nfitz]

You seem to be quite willing to interpret the by-law in interesting ways to support your argument, but dismiss any attempt to interpret it in the TTC's favour. As such, your always going to win the debate - at least in your own mind. So no point discussing any further.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The way I see the TTC treating presto right now is the same as a cash, tickets or tokens. If you use any of those and you need to transfer to another bus or streetcar you need a transfer or have to pay again.

 

[NotMathematical]

That is not the wording of the bylaw - I don't see the wording "anywhere" anywhere. That's your interpretation. If your interpretation was true, then you could board or transfer to a downtown express using only a Metropass, rather than paying the surcharge. Or perhaps you think that there's nothing in the By-laws that force you to pay a surcharge on the downtown express lines?

The bus driver forces you to pay the surcharge. If you don't pay the surcharge, then that's fare evasion which is enforced by the TTC. Paying the surcharge is not a law, it is a rule and a necessity to ride the downtown express routes. Its an option for commuters seeking a faster ride downtown.

The way I see the TTC treating presto right now is the same as a cash, tickets or tokens. If you use any of those and you need to transfer to another bus or streetcar you need a transfer or have to pay again.

Basically, that will change when we get further details on the fall report.

 

[nfitz]

The bus driver forces you to pay the surcharge. If you don't pay the surcharge, then that's fare evasion which is enforced by the TTC. Paying the surcharge is not a law, it is a rule and a necessity to ride the downtown express routes. Its an option for commuters seeking a faster ride downtown.

Agreed. The by-law says you have to present acceptable fare media for inspection. And the rule is that Presto Card isn't acceptable fare media except on Presto-enabled vehicles.

 

[NotMathematical]

Agreed. The by-law says you have to present acceptable fare media for inspection. And the rule is that Presto Card isn't acceptable fare media except on Presto-enabled vehicles.

I'm not too fond with the TTC by-law, can you provide the section of the by-law that you just mentioned?

 

[nfitz]

I'm not too fond with the TTC by-law, can you provide the section of the by-law that you just mentioned?

By-law 1 - https://www.ttc.ca/Riding_the_TTC/TTC_Bylaws/index.jsp

Section 2.6 When requested to do so by a proper authority, a person travelling on the transit system shall immediately surrender for inspection the fare media, an identification card or photo identification card under which the person is travelling.

What get's interesting, is that section 2.10 and 2.11 say that you are only entitled to a transfer if paying with token, cash, or ticket, making it clear that other fare media (such as Presto) doesn't entitle you to a transfer. However, TTC are saying that if you enter Spadina station, you should get a transfer before boarding the streetcar. However if you do so, you could be fined, according to the By-Law.

 

[NotMathematical]

By-law 1 - https://www.ttc.ca/Riding_the_TTC/TTC_Bylaws/index.jsp

Section 2.6 When requested to do so by a proper authority, a person travelling on the transit system shall immediately surrender for inspection the fare media, an identification card or photo identification card under which the person is travelling.

What get's interesting, is that section 2.10 and 2.11 say that you are only entitled to a transfer if paying with token, cash, or ticket, making it clear that other fare media (such as Presto) doesn't entitle you to a transfer. However, TTC are saying that if you enter Spadina station, you should get a transfer before boarding the streetcar. However if you do so, you could be fined, according to the By-Law.

Theoretically, paying using PRESTO is paying for a token in stored cash value which is $2.80. The TTC always reminds customers after they pay your fare, you must get a transfer as PoP, even at the transfer machines. You should always get a transfer at the beginning of your trip. The Spadina scenario is rather irrelevant as that'll be the beginning of your trip. What about if you pay at Union, get a transfer and board a 509/510 streetcar? When the 511 becomes PoP, will this issue arise once more because you get a transfer at Bathurst Station and you board the 511 afterwards? That's why the time is printed on the transfer to facilitate a dispute to depict if the time from Spadina Station to lets say, College Street is reasonable and the customer has paid the fare, you do not need to show your PRESTO card as long as you have your transfer. When you pay using PRESTO, TTC transfer rules apply. If you follow the rules, then its all common sense since it is the same rules as paying with cash, tickets or tokens. It maybe confusing since these stations are integrated with the fare paid area and other modes of transportation, but its not. As long as you have a transfer, its not confusing.

 

[Megaton327]

You seem to be quite willing to interpret the by-law in interesting ways to support your argument, but dismiss any attempt to interpret it in the TTC's favour. As such, your always going to win the debate - at least in your own mind. So no point discussing any further.

And you have time and time again proven yourself a TTC apologist, and you seem unwilling to interpret the bylaw exactly as it is plainly and clearly written, in terms of hard facts. You're obviously always going to win the debate in your mind, although I find your childish attempt to dismiss the argument while claiming victory highly amusing.

 

[nfitz]

Theoretically, paying using PRESTO is paying for a token in stored cash value which is $2.80.

. That's stretching it. If that's the case, why does By-Law 1 list tokens and electronic fare cards separately as fare media? The more likely case is TTC has screwed up.

And you have time and time again proven yourself a TTC apologist ...

That's beyond absurd. With my incessant complaining about TTC, I'm surprised they haven't issued a restraining order.

Clearly your not paying attention. It's unfortunate that your case is so poor, that you've had to resort to name calling.

However, just because TTC is often wrong and broken, doesn't mean that they are always wrong and broken. The By-laws clearly allow for prosecution of anyone ignorant enough to be trying to use a Prestocard on 504. Ironically they also allow prosecution of anyone who walks into Union station, taps on, and then takes a transfer.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Basically, that will change when we get further details on the fall report.

I think it's more likely to only change once every bus, streetcar and every station is equipped with presto reader until then if you us presto just take a transfer.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

That's stretching it. If that's the case, why does By-Law 1 list tokens and electronic fare cards separately as fare media? The more likely case is TTC has screwed up.

The TTC has always said if you use anything other then a metropass some other proof of payment is required if you transfer outside of a fair paid zone.

 

[NotMathematical]

. That's stretching it. If that's the case, why does By-Law 1 list tokens and electronic fare cards separately as fare media? The more likely case is TTC has screwed up.

Its because PRESTO is not the official farecard at the moment and its on going implementation as well, nor it has replaced any other fare media. That's why its not "characterized" as one.

 

[nfitz]

Its because PRESTO is not the official farecard at the moment and its on going implementation as well, nor it has replaced any other fare media. That's why its not "characterized" as one.

LIkely ... though by-law 1 not being up to date would make enforcement of difficult. If someone taps on at Bathurst, transfers to a streetcar at Spadina, and get's nailed, how would you get a conviction given that what they are telling you to do (take a transfer after using an electronic fare card) is in itself a bylaw offence.

Perhaps this is the reason we aren't seeing reports of people being ticketed, just warned.

 

[NotMathematical]

LIkely ... though by-law 1 not being up to date would make enforcement of difficult. If someone taps on at Bathurst, transfers to a streetcar at Spadina, and get's nailed, how would you get a conviction given that what they are telling you to do (take a transfer after using an electronic fare card) is in itself a bylaw offence.

Perhaps this is the reason we aren't seeing reports of people being ticketed, just warned.

OK, I assume you use a metropass for the majority of your travel. Ok, so Tapping at Bathrust and transferring at Spadina for a streetcar, is considered a continuous trip which is within the transfer rules. If you are challenged by the fare inspector, communication is a great tool in today's modern society. You tell them where did you originate and the route you took. They will know if its a continuous trip. It has happened to me already, the fare inspector just said "OK" to me and proceeded with the fare inspection.

By what you're telling me, you say that getting a transfer while using PRESTO is violating TTC By-Law, then why do we get told to get a transfer at subway station and streetcars as well?!? Are you seriously telling me the TTC is violating its own rules? And after nearly 6-7 years of the PRESTO pilot, this issue arises? Metrolinx and the TTC have already negotiated this, and now its an issue?

The transfer rules with PRESTO apply for ALL modes of transportation. That's why they're not two sets of transfer rules. Subway Stations are not the centre of Toronto.

I need a break...