[PinkLucy]

I think they're talking about transfers where you would normally have to show your metropass or a transfer, such as at King & Yonge, not places like Union or Bathurst station where you just go from subway to streetcar or vice versa without having to pass through payment gates.

 

[Napoleon]

So that means they have a Presto device in the passage between the Union streetcar loop and the subway?

Why would they need that? You've either paid when you got on the subway or you paid when you got a streetcar.

Presumably when transferring from subway to streetcar you don't need to tap again as your Presto card is already PoP. This is going to take some serious driver education.

 

[nfitz]

Presumably when transferring from subway to streetcar you don't need to tap again as your Presto card is already PoP. This is going to take some serious driver education.

I'd assume you would tap everytime you board. Or else the next time you transfer, it wouldn't know what you were on. Recall they've said that they are using a transfer table, and not a timed transfer.

Either way, there needs to be some clear instructions - and I'm sure there will be before it's activated.

 

[Komiksulo]

I assume it means you tap every time you change vehicle, which means that people are going to have to tap in fare-paid zones when entering the subway.

If not, and you tap only upon paying your fare, they'd almost have to use timed transfers.

 

[CDL.TO]

If they have a transfer table, I hope they're going to have proper ways for handling when a streetcar gets diverted and you have to transfer to the subway at an atypical location.

If it's actually time-based, it will be interesting to see the public figure that out.

And the streetcar-to-streetcar question remains unanswered.

I expect a lot of discussion (and speculation) about this in the coming months.

 

[nfitz]

I assume it means you tap every time you change vehicle, which means that people are going to have to tap in fare-paid zones when entering the subway.

That's an interesting implication.

If not, and you tap only upon paying your fare, they'd almost have to use timed transfers.

You'd think so - as otherwise, all the permutations are just too great - especially when you start considering all sorts of daily weirdness - such at the 510 Spadina cars rolling past St. Andrew and King stations every day heading to/from the yard, or frequent 506 detours past Dundas or Queen, or routes meeting during a detour that never meet otherwise. Or changing from one 501 to another 501 to yet another 501 every time you get short-turned on a long trip.

If they do end up doing a timed-transfer straight away (without board approval) there are immediate revenue implications - it's not unusual for example for my wife to take the kids to school 4 stops, and 15 minutes after her first tap to be heading the other direction to drop the other at pre-school - and then 15 minutes again be heading back in the first direction again. One fare instead of three? Bonus! And when I drop the one off, I get off drop off the child, and then reboard at the same stop only 5 minutes later, and keep going the same direction. How can it possibly differentiate between that and a short-turn or out-of-service?

It's going to be interesting ...

 

[PinkLucy]

I think I'm just going to keep taking that paper transfer until they sort it all out.

 

[nfitz]

I think I'm just going to keep taking that paper transfer until they sort it all out.

I pretty much have to - there are still replacement buses out there, especially in rush hour. And some trips I end up transferring to a bus unexpectedly, when the streetcar is missing.

But I'm really interested in what happens with those really short trips, where you get out, pop into the store, and then 5 minutes later either start a new trip in the same direction or reverse direction!

 

[ksun]

But I'm really interested in what happens with those really short trips, where you get out, pop into the store, and then 5 minutes later either start a new trip in the same direction or reverse direction!

it should be allowed by all means.
I don't know what sense it makes to charge a customers $6 for two 1 km trips, but only $3 for a 5km one. Just give an unconditional 2 hour free transfer already.

 

[cplchanb]

well technically you can travel the whole system on $3 which in this age is unthinkable...
Distance based fares and the aforementioned 2hr transfer (which has already working been well for years in the other gta systems) are a must if the ttc is to continue to be viable in the future

 

[Megaton327]

That's an interesting implication.

You'd think so - as otherwise, all the permutations are just too great - especially when you start considering all sorts of daily weirdness - such at the 510 Spadina cars rolling past St. Andrew and King stations every day heading to/from the yard, or frequent 506 detours past Dundas or Queen, or routes meeting during a detour that never meet otherwise. Or changing from one 501 to another 501 to yet another 501 every time you get short-turned on a long trip.

If they do end up doing a timed-transfer straight away (without board approval) there are immediate revenue implications - it's not unusual for example for my wife to take the kids to school 4 stops, and 15 minutes after her first tap to be heading the other direction to drop the other at pre-school - and then 15 minutes again be heading back in the first direction again. One fare instead of three? Bonus! And when I drop the one off, I get off drop off the child, and then reboard at the same stop only 5 minutes later, and keep going the same direction. How can it possibly differentiate between that and a short-turn or out-of-service?

It's going to be interesting ...

I agree, it REALLY seems as though they have no choice here but use a time based transfer. Maybe, at the very most, add the logic of "tap on a streetcar on route X, next tap cannot be on same route in either direction" but then short turns would be screwed...that said, maybe make it so you don't have to tap after a short turn, as POP inspectors can easily see where and when you tapped your card and hopefully do the mental math

As stated earlier, and I've just tweeted Brad about this exact case and hope to hear back soon, take this example: I tap on an eastbound 509 streetcar headed to Union, I transfer to northbound Line 1 to King Station (a free transfer with no fare gates/barriers/presto readers, so my POP is not updated for this connection), then get out and transfer to an eastbound 504, where I do have to tap. How will the 504 possibly know my transfer is valid? If my last tap was for an eastbound 509, those routes are parallel and completely non-intersecting in regular operation, so the 504 presto devices would be justified in refusing the transfer and charging a second $2.80 fare instead. However, that is obviously not the case as 509>subway>504 is a valid connection--but there is no way for it to know that with the 509/510 being in the fare paid area at Union.

Since according to the TTC's current instructions, as best we know this is supposed to work/be possible, and the only way I can imagine that working properly is for a sort of time-based transfer with, at most, some very minimal logic to disqualify abuse, i.e. a time-based transfer with a blacklist as opposed to a whitelist of allowed transfers.

 

[Megaton327]

Brad has replied to my tweet "What if I take 509 to Union, subway to King, 504 east? No tap@union, so how will 504 know transfer is valid? 509-504 not usually ok": "That's a valid transfer today with paper. The system will accept it when you tap onto the 504."

That seems to confirm a time-based transfer is, more or less, what they have implemented on the back-end, as there is really no other way for the 504 to know that's a valid transfer. They may or may not have a limited blacklist disqualifying boarding another vehicle on the same route, but a time-based transfer seems to be the foundation.

 

[nfitz]

it should be allowed by all means.

It's always been allowed. But it does, of course, cost an extra fare under the current rules.

Just give an unconditional 2 hour free transfer already.

That would require a policy change - one that the board has cleary voted not to do. And of course $20 million. Where do we get that? We could raise all fares a nickel.

I agree, it REALLY seems as though they have no choice here but use a time based transfer.

Metrolinx committed in the agreement with TTC that they could and would the current TTC transfer rules. If they can't meet their contractual requirements, then perhaps they should be coughing up the $20 million a year.

Brad has replied to my tweet "What if I take 509 to Union, subway to King, 504 east? No tap@union, so how will 504 know transfer is valid? 509-504 not usually ok": "That's a valid transfer today with paper. The system will accept it when you tap onto the 504."

That seems to confirm a time-based transfer is, more or less, what they have implemented on the back-end, as there is really no other way for the 504 to know that's a valid transfer. They may or may not have a limited blacklist disqualifying boarding another vehicle on the same route, but a time-based transfer seems to be the foundation.

I think you are right, that they've implemented a time-based transfer. And I'm guessing, they don't want to say that very loudly. Do they think that users won't notice very quickly!?!

Not sure how you block transferring to same route - that's a short turn.

Sometimes I've even transferred to vehicle going in the opposite direction - perfectly legally. For example if taking westbound 506 from Coxwell to Dundas and Parliament, I often change at Broadview to a 505 if one is coming; but once I do so, I could just as easily jump on a 506 heading west, if it's short-turning at Broadview (as they often to), and then continue to Dundas and Parliament. A valid 506 west to 506 east transfer.

 

[Tuscani01]

I wonder if its just a matter of them having disabled transfers for the route you tap in on then? For example, you tap in on the 509 and can transfer to any route, but a second tap within 2 hours on the 509 would result in another $2.80 being deducted.

It would still allow for someone to walk up to a parallel route to continue their journey, but not allow for someone to get out, shop, and get back on. So somewhat like a timed transfer, but still respecting the TTC's rules for transfers somewhat.

Edit: Just saw that @Megaton327 said the same thing.

 

[CDL.TO]

I wonder if its just a matter of them having disabled transfers for the route you tap in on then? For example, you tap in on the 509 and can transfer to any route, but a second tap within 2 hours on the 509 would result in another $2.80 being deducted.

It would still allow for someone to walk up to a parallel route to continue their journey, but not allow for someone to get out, shop, and get back on. So somewhat like a timed transfer, but still respecting the TTC's rules for transfers somewhat.

That wouldn't work in the case of short turns, scheduled or unscheduled.