[Voltz]

Actually, one of the drivers is the Spadina Extension. Even if you assume the fare system isn't change anytime soon (fare by distance), the TTC subway will technically be a zoned system. York University is going to be both in the York Region AND TTC zone, but if you take the subway anywhere else it'll tack on a second fare when you transfer to a surface vehicle or exit a subway station.

Added side-effects include better knowledge of customer flows (detailed trip knowledge) and it'll be very difficult to commit fare-fraud if each transfer, and exiting stations, requires a tap.


I'm not sure all that is worth the inconvenience but I'm also not demanding council reduce my tax burden by $2/month (2%).

If the Spadina Extension is ultimately the only reason to implement tap outs, and fare by distance never happens, then making everyone tap out just because of the relatively few trips between Vaughan and York University is not worth it. For those trips just have a voluntary tap out and if those riders don't, then they would get charged double.

Tap outs would require that all riders use Presto Cards, what happens to those casual riders who pay cash on a bus and end their trip at a station? Or someone who has to pay cash because there is no way to top up their card?

 

[Megaton327]

One thing that will be essential is for TTC to ensure people can actually top-up or buy Presto cards at Presto-only entrances. I noticed this recently at the Bay entrance on Cumberland. It's Presto-only, but there's no Presto machine! So if you don't have a card, or have an insufficient balance, you need to exit and walk on the street to the other entrance. Oh, and at the other entrance there's only a machine selling NEW cards, not a top-up machine for existing cards.

Not to mention the problem of actually keeping machines in working order. I tried to top up at King a little while ago and couldn't because both machines were broken. A TTC staffer was trying to help a tourist navigate the situation, but conceded TTC staff aren't "trained" with Presto because...it's a Metrolinx project! Like a visitor to Toronto is supposed to care or understand that.

I really, really hope these are just temporary teething problems.

The eventual plan is for every subway station (I hope LRT stations, at least the underground ones, too, but not sure) to both sell and reload Presto cards. However, there's no guarantee that those machines will actually *work* or be stocked with cards to sell...

 

[crs1026]

I really, really hope these are just temporary teething problems.

I think there will be a whole lot of 'lessons learned'. Bureaucracies being what they are, it will be interesting to see whether and how quickly the TTC reacts to these.

For now, it's refreshing to see so many buses showing up with Presto readers. The sooner the installation phase is finished, the faster TTC will find out where the weak points of the design are.

My spouse, who mostly takes TTC so never saw Presto coming, actually said to me recently "I guess I do need to get a Presto Card, after all". Even a single spousal 'told you so' is worth a year of unnecessary tap-offs

- Paul

 

[cplchanb]

Whay is the current status of the new fare gates? Have they announced which stations are next for the retrofit?

 

[rbt]

If the Spadina Extension is ultimately the only reason to implement tap outs, and fare by distance never happens, then making everyone tap out just because of the relatively few trips between Vaughan and York University is not worth it. For those trips just have a voluntary tap out and if those riders don't, then they would get charged double.

Yeah. I really doubt it'll be the only reason a few years from now BUT it's the only official reason right now. Metrolinx has several plans that might require it but nothing has been firmed up enough to make it an official reason.

Reducing fare fraud isn't a bad reason to require tap-outs. It immediately makes it hard for folks to slip into the fare-paid zone at say Dundas West station to take the subway downtown.

Tap outs would require that all riders use Presto Cards, what happens to those casual riders who pay cash on a bus and end their trip at a station? Or someone who has to pay cash because there is no way to top up their card?

I'm pretty sure Presto is required to introduce single-trip cards for cash fare customers as part of the TTC contract.

 

[TransitBart]

I'm pretty sure Presto is required to introduce single-trip cards for cash fare customers as part of the TTC contract.

Correct. The end of cash fares. Not unusual in my experience around the world.

 

[MetroMan]

RFID paper tickets are likely what the TTC will have to adopt. While they're very cheap, there's going to be a premium on buying single use tickets. Once the fare structure is reorganized, I wouldn't be surprised to see a single cash ticket higher than the $3.25 of today.

Some transit systems require that riders buy a card while others provide cheap reloadable but temporary paper RFID cards. The original ticket could be $1 over and above the price of the fare.

 

[ShonTron]

RFID paper tickets are likely what the TTC will have to adopt. While they're very cheap, there's going to be a premium on buying single use tickets. Once the fare structure is reorganized, I wouldn't be surprised to see a single cash ticket higher than the $3.25 of today.

Some transit systems require that riders buy a card while others provide cheap reloadable but temporary paper RFID cards. The original ticket could be $1 over and above the price of the fare.

Yes. This is what most systems with smart cards do - Montreal relies on the Opus Card, but single or 3-ride tickets, or day passes are on RFID cards called "L'Occasionnelle" which are not rechargeable. The MBTA has a "Charlie Ticket" as well as their famous "Charlie Card."

 

[rbt]

Correct. The end of cash fares. Not unusual in my experience around the world.

How does providing a system to make the gates work end cash fares? If someone walks to a stop with 4 loonies, they'll be able to board a train or a tram or a bus.

If paying via a machine eliminates the cash fare, then banks eliminated cash decades ago by introducing ATMs.

 

[DSC]

How does providing a system to make the gates work end cash fares? If someone walks to a stop with 4 loonies, they'll be able to board a train or a tram or a bus.

If paying via a machine eliminates the cash fare, then banks eliminated cash decades ago by introducing ATMs.

You will have to buy a ticket in advance of travel and there will certainly not be ticket vending machines at every stop or on every vehicle.

 

[rbt]

there will certainly not be ticket vending machines at every stop or on every vehicle.

What makes you say that? In simplest form, it's a button the driver hits when satisfied the fare has been paid and a small machine that outputs a transfer card (already tapped in) instead of a customer being handed a paper transfer.

The only downside is buses still have a farebox that needs to be collected periodically but the cost of this overhead could be built into the price of an on-vehicle cash fare. Several cities (even UPX!) have different rates depending on whether you use a vending machine or pay on-board.

What TTC actually does I don't know, but I think it would be both unwise and unnecessary to ditch onboard cash payments entirely.

 

[W. K. Lis]

You will have to buy a ticket in advance of travel and there will certainly not be ticket vending machines at every stop or on every vehicle.

There will be a vending machine on each transit vehicle that will continue to accept cash adult fares and issue a transfer for proof-of-payment. For discounts (student or seniors), they'll have to use the PRESTO cards. At the busy bus or streetcar stops, there will be a vending machine near the stop.

 

[wopchop]

Not sure where to put this but ....

Does Metrolinx ever plan to add more Presto Readers to Exhibition GO Station? Currently, the situation during crowded events is ridiculous. There are two in front of the stairs to the underpass, and another kind of off to the side of the stairs. Right now, you end up with queues of people tapping the just one or two readers.

 

[W. K. Lis]

While they do have a map where they allegedly have PRESTO gates (see link) at subway stations, there is no map of which streetcar stops (or bus stops) that have PRESTO machines.

 

[Megaton327]

While they do have a map where they allegedly have PRESTO gates (see link) at subway stations, there is no map of which streetcar stops (or bus stops) that have PRESTO machines.

There are two of those machines on every single LFLRV--once they replace the C/ALRVs entirely with them, every single streetcar will have 2 on-board.

At that point, these are only necessary at busy stops where lots of people are expected to board regularly, so that cash-paying customers will be able to buy their tickets before boarding, as opposed to after. Also note that once tokens, tickets, and paper transfers for Presto are phased out, these will solely handle Cash and Credit/Debit purchases--currently a large percentage of their use is by token or ticket passengers, so this will be less important once they're just there for cash fares. So, there's not really a point in a map of them since these are not critical as if there is not one at your stop you just pay on-board instead.

As for the time being with C/ALRVs in service, people need these even less since they can always just pay at the farebox.