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I'd be confident of that if there was one tweet, report or press release - just one - where the TTC says this is why they don't show the balance. The only source I've seen for the AODA explanation is a handful of random people on an internet forum.
TTC staff had said this several times at various open houses, Q&As, and online over the years. The position is dead clear and I'm not sure why you raise it again without just googling it or something.

There is any doubt on why TTC is doing this. It's been stated many times, and the discussion of it has been ongoing in this thread since 2010 when people threatened action under the AODA because you could see but not hear the balance.

Here are some tweets:
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Gosh I don't think I need to start searching other media, is that enough?

More importantly, recall the 2010 article in the Toronto Star:

Disability rights activist calls for shutdown of Presto
First he tackled transit stop announcements. Now David Lepofsky is going after the Presto smart card system, which he says is not accessible for visually impaired users.

It explicitly notes when talking about the visual card balances on Presto tap ins that:
Lepofsky says the failure to include an audio option contradicts the goals of the Accessibility for Ontarians with Disabilities Act and violates human rights obligations.
So not only do TTC clearly state many times that you can't see the balance because of AODA issues, there's a threat from the lawyer who has successfully sued TTC before that doing this violates the AODA and human rights obligations.

Why do you doubt this, after the years of discussion here about this? We've been discussing this now for almost 7 years, in this very thread! http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/metrolinx-presto-fare-card.4286/page-55#post-432562
 

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I don't think they'll be putting single tickets on Presto. Single fares will work exactly the way they do now, and the ttc has a lot of riders who don't use passes (who also don't use GO).
Not on the current Presto cards. There will be single-use paper Presto cards coming, similar to Vancouver. Whether these by called cards, or tickets, or zonkers ... who knows. Recall we had the $1 coins in our hands when they were introduced, not knowing yet that they'd become known as loonies.
 
Why do you doubt this, after the years of discussion here about this?

Because that's the first time that I've seen anyone post those tweets.

But while we're at it, when is the TTC going to get sued over the TV screens that show the next trains' and buses' arrival times without an audible announcement? What about the overhead signage all over every subway station? I still think it's a stupid excuse.
 
Maybe Lepofsky is right. But he might not be. The stop call out was reasonable because the technology was available. Not clear the court would bar an improvement to most customers when there isn't an obvious way to give it to everyone at reasonable cost/disruption.
 
Possible scenario, in the morning I pay for the TTC using Presto not knowing that I've used the remaining balance and I don't have auto reload. In the evening, I'm trying to get home but for some reason the screen only shows a red cross and I don't know why.

Although yes it's one of those what if situations and perhaps the wrecking term is a bit of a stretch, but many people don't have auto reload nor are tech savy enough to be able to register their cards to check their balances. They rely on the individual add value machines in the stations. That's why in many other systems around the world there's a fare adjustment machine inside the fare paid area so that if you know from checking your balance when you tap on that you just used your last few dollars you can top up you can add money on the spot instead of relying on a still unguaranteed 24hr turnaround Web load.

The TTC is a bit niave to assume that everyone has Internet access when they themselves are still lagging behind the world in getting reception for their tunnels. Hell even stm's metro can go wireless underground.

That scenario is your own fault. We don't need hand-holding and babysitting for people gawking at the terminal for their balance, fishing around in their pockets for fare, or blocking the doorway asking the driver for directions, take some responsibility for once.
 
Because that's the first time that I've seen anyone post those tweets.

Yes, there's been years of discussion on this, but this the FIRST time there's been any actual semblance of proof.

And despite it being at least Brad Ross' view (in their view is different than it actually being required), I still don't fully buy it, because nobody has bothered with the other systems for years. Notice that the article is 7 years old and nothing has come of that, for lack of a better term, threat, despite no change.
 
Yes, there's been years of discussion on this, but this the FIRST time there's been any actual semblance of proof.

And despite it being at least Brad Ross' view (in their view is different than it actually being required), I still don't fully buy it, because nobody has bothered with the other systems for years. Notice that the article is 7 years old and nothing has come of that, for lack of a better term, threat, despite no change.

Same here. I honestly don't pay much close attention to the fine details of this thread except for the big items. It was only after my trip to Asia where my eyes were literally opened to what we've been missing out here, and Im only postings observations.

Imo this lawyer is mainly in it for the settlement money. All the other presto users who post balances would've had that function disabled long ago if the courts actually found sound basis. Either that or ttc is choosing not to even try to contest this issue by bending over to this lawyer which would confirm that have no spine. It is clear why he chose to fight ttc and noone else to date (at least that I know Of). I'm just tired that everyone assumes that they can have everything 100% just for them. Is there seriously a sizable blind population who have made a formal complaint to ttc or is it just the stubborn few who felt slighted because they have been inconvenienced and feel that they should inconvenience millions of others to feel equal. As our few esteemed experts on this forum have stated, "very few use this function anyways..." it's only that they have it that they have to take issue with it.

On another note, can their next generation readers have 3.5mm jacks on them so the "blind" can plug their earphones to it? Perhaps that would get the lemon law lawyers (the dirtiest scumbags of them all) off ttcs back. Then again as lawyers they'll fond some way to make more money at the publics expense
 
That scenario is your own fault. We don't need hand-holding and babysitting for people gawking at the terminal for their balance, fishing around in their pockets for fare, or blocking the doorway asking the driver for directions, take some responsibility for once.

Thats a pretty niave statement to make.
Try going to another city overseas with tens of times more traffic daily vs union station and WITH Internet access everywhere underground and you can see that this happens all the time. It's just that they have the means to correct it at the gate while we don't.

Trust me, it's a pretty eye opening experience seeing things that are so much more advanced than ours in place for years. It's almost like north Koreans walking south. Maybe that will change your assessment of the situation
 
Imo this lawyer is mainly in it for the settlement money.

The lawyer happens to be completely blind, uses TTC almost exclusively for transportation, and drops a small fortune in donations (and time) toward disability support groups.

IMO, you did very little research before jumping to that conclusion.
 
That scenario is your own fault. We don't need hand-holding and babysitting for people gawking at the terminal for their balance, fishing around in their pockets for fare, or blocking the doorway asking the driver for directions, take some responsibility for once.
Do you see that though on systems that do show the balance? I didn't see any such delays on London farelines, and I can't recall what the buses showed, as I don't think I glanced at it.

Yes, there's been years of discussion on this, but this the FIRST time there's been any actual semblance of proof.
First? The oldest reference I found was the 2010 article, and there was a long discussion of that here in this very thread! And TTC has been tweeting the heck out of the issue in the last couple of years - I'd be shocked if there was not one single mention of them here.

There's nothing new here, that reading through the thread before posting, or a little googling wouldn't have found.

Imo this lawyer is mainly in it for the settlement money.
If that was true, then he'd be filing a libel suit against you - though I guess if it was true, you'd win; but as it's quite clearly not true to anyone who spent 20 second doing any research then he would win - except he'd have no interest in the money. Hmm, Catch-22.

Trust me, it's a pretty eye opening experience seeing things that are so much more advanced than ours in place for years. It's almost like north Koreans walking south.
Some city's are ahead on some ways. London is ahead on Oyster in some ways, but look how long it's taken to get their commuter network integrated properly, and how difficult it is to load online compared to Presto. On other issues, they still haven't figured out how to air-condition some of their trains, even with new rolling stock. And as far as accessibility - they are miles behind Toronto, and honestly don't look like they've done much in the last decade, other than at stations they've had to rebuild for new lines.

Montreal has much better fare integration with commuter, but the fare card is a disaster, with no cash balance, no ability to load online (unless you buy a physical card writer), and the requirement to pre-purchase tickets (or passes) on each individual system you ride; but with a limit of only being able to handle (3) different systems per card. And then there is there disastrous lack of Metro expansion, with Montreal not adding any new stations in near 30 years, and nothing imminent (well, the Anjou extension has been imminent for 35 years now ... so who knows). It's only the province that has forced some limited expansion outside of Montreal. And accessibility ... it's happening - they'll be done all the existing stations by about the year 2190 at the current rate.

New York ... so many issues. Where do you start?

Bangkok - construction of the entire system is stalled, between the corrupt government, and various other issues. And look at some of the bizarre transfers between the existing Skytrain lines and the newer Subway line. And fare integration?

Seoul - I'm not sure I've seen such public drunkenness anywhere at 7 pm in the evening - and these weren't hobos, but guys in business suits - or what that looks like once you are drunk. The lack of proper ventilation and air-conditioning in some of the stations is dreadful in the summer. And surprisingly in-frequent off-peak service. Accessibility in some ways is very good, with elevators at most (all?) stations, but some of the (long) connecting passages aren't accessible, and unless something has changed recently, seems non-existent on buses. I don't recall seeing smoking in subway washrooms, but based on what I saw/smelled in the airport (with women being the worst offenders), I'd have to think that happens to - hard to believe in this day and age.

Paris - haven't spent much time on this, but the amount of graffiti within operating stations was surprising. The RER was surprisingly infrequent at times on a weekday, even though I never went any further out than the 10th arrondissement, and not late at night! And the ticketing system seems prehistoric compared to Presto and even Oyster - though there are now plans to do something about that. But they seem behind even Toronto.

Chicago - again, where do you start? Well, there was the warning not to travel on a certain line past a certain station because of my skin colour ... which seems rather extreme.

It's all nice that City X has better ticketing, and City Y has more lines, but does that matter when you have the kind of racism that still exists in the USA, or even the UK and France? And South Korea seems more racist than them all, and doesn't even have laws forbidding discrimination based on skin colour! I know less of Thailand - but a person with us who spoke Thai quickly noticed Thais being charged one rate, and another for 'farang', with signage to that effect with the derogatory language. And of course, the subway might be quick and clean, but who wants to live in a military dictatorship, where they can put you away for even mentioning the truth that everyone knew, that the puppet-king was a mentally-impaired almost-vegetable wired to life support. Let alone making political comments!
 
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Hmm fair enough that there are plus and minuses around. Still their positives in terms of convenience and implementation of their smart cards in general are lightyears ahead of us.
 
Hmm fair enough that there are plus and minuses around. Still their positives in terms of convenience and implementation of their smart cards in general are lightyears ahead of us.
Depends who we are talking about. I wouldn't say that London or Montreal are ahead of us on Smart Cards - if anything they are behind (at least when TTC rollout is complete in a few months). And Vancouver had to end their zone system on buses, because their smartcard couldn't handle it.
 
Depends who we are talking about. I wouldn't say that London or Montreal are ahead of us on Smart Cards - if anything they are behind (at least when TTC rollout is complete in a few months). And Vancouver had to end their zone system on buses, because their smartcard couldn't handle it.

can you explain how London's Oyster card is behind us? Im actually curious. As for the rest of the Canadian cities and in general north america, I'm not really surprised and I didnt factor them in my thought process anyways.
 
Yes, there's been years of discussion on this, but this the FIRST time there's been any actual semblance of proof.

And despite it being at least Brad Ross' view (in their view is different than it actually being required), I still don't fully buy it, because nobody has bothered with the other systems for years. Notice that the article is 7 years old and nothing has come of that, for lack of a better term, threat, despite no change.

Trotting out AODA as an excuse is laughable - and the failure to effect service improvement using that is basically gunning for the lowest common denominator equality of outcome.

AoD
 
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Trotting out AODA as an excuse is laughable - and the failure to effect service improvement using that is basically gunning for the lowest common denominator equality of outcome.

AoD

I wouldnt say its a laughable. As we have just seen from this week's debates over a simple balance function, there are lawyers out there who are just jumping on every opportunity to sue the TTC over every small detail using AODA as their reasonings. every litigation takes much time and money away from productivity and it also prevents TTC from trying to explore new ideas in fear of ruffling the activists again. so yes, I for one blame do the AODA for at the very least fuelling the suing and lemon law cultures we have here in North America.
 

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