[Megaton327]

In fact, how does a customer on a new streetcar who uses PRESTO get a transfer?

I don't believe the LFLRVs operate on any routes which experience that particular Presto problem, so Presto users are fine with the electronic transfer automatically applied to the card, and just need to tap every time they board a vehicle or enter a station. If the new streetcars were to begin operating on one of those bus routes (which is very unlikely) they would need to re-enable the transfer printers on the fare machines.

 

[DSC]

I don't believe the LFLRVs operate on any routes which experience that particular Presto problem, so Presto users are fine with the electronic transfer automatically applied to the card, and just need to tap every time they board a vehicle or enter a station. If the new streetcars were to begin operating on one of those bus routes (which is very unlikely) they would need to re-enable the transfer printers on the fare machines.

If one takes 514 King to King Station and then subway to Union in order to get a 121 to the Distillery you will, apparently, need a paper transfer to get onto the 121 bus (without tapping and being charged a second PRESTO fare). You are supposed to get a transfer where you start a journey (the 514) not at Union (or King) subway stations. In fact, with PRESTO why would you even think of getting one?

 

[rbt]

Unless theres some sort of gps chip inside.

The cards don't have GPS but the Presto readers do; they also will have knowledge of which route they're currently operating for.

Express routes which have a different fare level require the route information and location information is necessary for routes which extend into other regions. So, even with a time-only based transfer, both those features are still required as basic functionality.

 

[Megaton327]

If one takes 514 King to King Station and then subway to Union in order to get a 121 to the Distillery you will, apparently, need a paper transfer to get onto the 121 bus (without tapping and being charged a second PRESTO fare). You are supposed to get a transfer where you start a journey (the 514) not at Union (or King) subway stations. In fact, with PRESTO why would you even think of getting one?

You can get a transfer at King from a machine. While you are technically supposed to get one where you pay your fare, there is nothing stopping you from doing it at king.

 

[Megaton327]

But, the TTC does have transfer rules, and they are clearly defined. It shouldn't be TTC's problem that it requires human validation, and the fact that PRESTO agreed to implement those rules. If PRESTO cannot implement these rules, which indeed, are not very friendly for digitization, then they should pay a contract breach fee, or maybe agree to subsidize 2-hour transfers for the length of PRESTO usage on the TTC. Or, alternatively, maybe they can build an AI that would be able to figure out these edge cases. That would be interesting indeed.

Sorry, I think you didn't understand my point. Since you keep on using the term "contract", the contract says that Presto will implement the TTC's transfer policy. So, the TTC needs to provide Presto with the transfer policy. The TTC does not have a concrete transfer policy, so they have not provided one to Presto, so Presto is not required to implement what they don't have.

It IS the TTC's problem that it requires human validation, because the TTC is responsible for the TTC's transfer policy! If they can figure out their own policy, then they can provide it to Presto for implementation.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Line 1 is not a POP route. You are not required to have POP while in the fare paid area of any subway station or on any train, with the exception that you can be inspected as you disembark a proof of payment vehicle in the station. Currently, as far as I know, no bus routes are officially POP, so this only applies to streetcars--for instance, as you get off a car at Spadina, Union, or Broadview, they can inspect your fare. Getting off a bus you're not subject to it, but even if you were, once you're on the subway--or in any part of the station where it's conceivable you could have gotten there other than by exiting a vehicle--you aren't required to have, and can't be required to show, POP.

Thanks. Second question: I was on my way to Exhibition last week. Took the Lawrence East bus, transferred to Line 1 and again to the 509 Harbourfront at Union. Again, the Presto reader wasn't working on the Lawrence East bus, so I hadn't paid a fare. I was getting a bit nervous as we reached Exhibition Station as I remembered I had not yet paid my fare. In that situation, I definitely could have gotten ticketed if we were inspected exiting the streetcar at Exhibition, correct?

If I did get ticketed, I suppose it would be partially my fault, since I could've paid on board the streetcar. But after 40 mins in transit, the $2.90 fare was the last thing on my mind. I expect that this is a fairly common situation; I don't believe most TTC riders have enough knowledge of our chaotic transfer rules to understand they they would've been expected to pay upon boarding the streetcar.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Also, if Presto isn't working on the 510 when I board, what happens to passengers that are inspected at Union or Spadina Station?

I think this is one reason why they should put fare gates onto the streetcar platforms at those too sations once they implement tap offs from the subway. It can do two things one cut down on the poel tha jump the que lines by heading through the exit and two it will mean that anyone that didn't get a chance to tap on the streetcar will do it before they board the subway. They could evn just have a tap point and no gates or have them be able to be set to opn if it's crowded.

 

[Megaton327]

Second question: I was on my way to Exhibition last week. Took the Lawrence East bus, transferred to Line 1 and again to the 509 Harbourfront at Union. Again, the Presto reader wasn't working on the Lawrence East bus, so I hadn't paid a fare. I was getting a bit nervous as we reached Exhibition Station as I remembered I had not yet paid my fare. In that situation, I definitely could have gotten ticketed if we were inspected exiting the streetcar at Exhibition, correct?

In that case, I believe you could be ticketed, yes. In fact, the TTC technically asks people to always tap when boarding a vehicle, even within a fare paid area e.g. if you tapped your Presto card even at the turnstiles at Union, you're technically supposed to tap again a minute later as you board a 509. That's technically unenforceable, but in the situation you described I'm pretty sure a fare inspector would fine you.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The transfer rules are obviously NOT clearly defined (or obvious).. If they were they would be able to cope with the Union Station and Royal York cases above. The TTC is getting rid of paper transfers so their ad hoc solution will be short-lived. What will they do then? In fact, how does a customer on a new streetcar who uses PRESTO get a transfer?

If one takes 514 King to King Station and then subway to Union in order to get a 121 to the Distillery you will, apparently, need a paper transfer to get onto the 121 bus (without tapping and being charged a second PRESTO fare). You are supposed to get a transfer where you start a journey (the 514) not at Union (or King) subway stations. In fact, with PRESTO why would you even think of getting one?

Most of the new streetcars now no longer give out transfers for preto card only the first 20 or so delivered do mainly because once you tap your transfer is on your presto card. They only printed transfers when it wasn't fully implemented system wide now that every bus and subway station has it as well they don't give out transfers. There are some exceptions because of the readers not being programed to except a transfer from certain places because of the TTC transfer rules. Union used to not allow transfers from surface routes until the 121 was implemented and now they need to reprogram the presto system to accept transfer at union station it will most likely happen when Union gets he new fare gates. Alos Preto is constantly being updated for the TTC almost all the time to deal with many of the problems assisted with how ther fare system works and needs to work in the future. For example they will at some point introduce daily and weekly caps on TTC fare paid with Presto card that will be based on the daily and weekly rates from those pases as they will be pahsed out of the system and the only pass available will be the monthly metropass which will also be on a presto card.

 

[DSC]

If reprigraming PRESTO is so easy why is the TTC expecting custoners who use PRESTO to go back to paper transfers for several bus routes? (It is not only 121 and Union). It seems to me it is another example of the TTC not thinking of customers and there is a simple fix, which would greatly improve service and simplify things. Timed transfers.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Many seem to think changing to 2-hour transfers will solve the whole problem of Presto on the TTC. I know most other Transit Agencies that use Presto has 2-hour transfers, but is there an evidence that 2-hour transfers is the simplest and best solution?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

If reprigraming PRESTO is so easy why is the TTC expecting custoners who use PRESTO to go back to paper transfers for several bus routes? (It is not only 121 and Union). It seems to me it is another example of the TTC not thinking of customers and there is a simple fix, which would greatly improve service and simplify things. Timed transfers.

Many seem to think changing to 2-hour transfers will solve the whole problem of Presto on the TTC. I know most other Transit Agencies that use Presto has 2-hour transfers, but is there an evidence that 2-hour transfers is the simplest and best solution?

The TTC already has a two hour transfer window in place for preto users. However they have complex rules about where they can be used and they still need to be worked out many of them are because the station that the bs or streetcar stops at doesn't have facilities fro a bus to drop off inside of the fare gates of the station. Alos they are still figuring out how to proam it for how it will work for short turns of surface routes too. Most of them will probably becoming meaningless anyway once they add in the Daily and Weekly caps on fars as well as Metropass being fully rolled out to everyone using Preto, currently they are only relising afew pases online.

 

[crs1026]

The Royal York situation is curious.. The bus loop (normally a gateless transfer within the fare paid area) is closed for renovations. All buses stop at a temporary transfer point that is outside the fare paid area. One would think that having tapped on the bus, one could simply tap on at the subway fare gate, and that would be recognized as a transfer..... but there must be a rule programmed into Presto that blocks a bus to subway transfer at this station. (Since normally, the only scenario where one would tap the bus and then the subway would be if the trip were broken.....say, by getting off at Bloor to shop)

One would think that these blocks could be turned off at will, but that must not be possible. It speaks to just how much time and effort has been spent programming in the TTC transfer table, in an inflexible manner. I wonder whether the added cost of that, compared to a simple 2-hour timed transfer, might actually exceed the lost revenue from the second fare on broken trips.

- Paul

 

[rbt]

If reprigraming PRESTO is so easy why is the TTC expecting custoners who use PRESTO to go back to paper transfers for several bus routes?

Nobody said it was easy. We've said the TTC has paid the vendor to do it; and if the vendor doesn't achieve it (whatever "it" is that's in the contract) then it's breach of contract and TTC should be compensated for requiring a change in behaviour.

If time based transfers cost $20M/year to implement, and the vendor cannot achieve anything reasonable any other way, then the vendor needs to discount TTC fees by $20M/year (increasing with inflation!) so long as Presto exists as the payment system. It's hundreds of millions of dollars over a couple decades; I wouldn't expect the city to gift it to Metrolinx.

 

[WillTo]

In fact, the TTC technically asks people to always tap when boarding a vehicle, even within a fare paid area e.g. if you tapped your Presto card even at the turnstiles at Union, you're technically supposed to tap again a minute later as you board a 509.

Where does it says this? I've read the TTC side inside out and don't recall this.