[amnesiajune]

If they get a warrant, fine, that's the basis of the guarantee of our rights.

You can only get warrants when whatever you want to search is likely to be evidence of the crime itself. If the police are trying to arrest a suspect, they can't get a warrant for evidence that will help lead to the arrest (such as public transit travel patterns). They can get a production order, but that's about it. If they're looking for a missing person, they can't get a production order either.

 

[steveintoronto]

You can only get warrants when whatever you want to search is likely to be evidence of the crime itself. If the police are trying to arrest a suspect, they can't get a warrant for evidence that will help lead to the arrest (such as public transit travel patterns). They can get a production order, but that's about it. If they're looking for a missing person, they can't get a production order either.

I suggest you read the comments from Presto themselves, and their privacy policy, let alone provincial and federal law. In Ontario, a warrant is required to access such information, even for missing persons.

Example:
[...]
What if the request for records is made by the police?
During the course of a missing person or criminal investigation, a mechanism exists for the Ontario Provincial Police to legally require a dentist to surrender dental records to them. This legal authority is a search warrant issued by a judge or a justice of the peace.
[...]
It is important to note that a coroner’s investigation, and a missing person or criminal investigation, are among the few exceptions when dentists may release the original dental records for a patient.

Additional Information

• The Dentistry Act, 1991, and the Personal Health Information Protection Act, 2004, and the Coroner’s Act, 1990, and the regulations made under these statutes may be found on the Ontario government website at www.e-laws.gov.on.ca.

http://www.rcdso.org/KnowledgeCentr...seofdentalrecordsfordeceasedormissingpatients

I'm sure we're going to be hearing more on this in the news media,
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/metrolinx-presto-data-police-1.4145132
so I won't bother to dig any further at this time save to repeat that the US is far more pro-active in protecting privacy. Canada, amongst developed nations, is a laggard.

 

[nfitz]

Presto is not a dentist.

 

[steveintoronto]

Presto is not a dentist.

Good Heavens No!
Presto Dentist - RealSelf
https://www.realself.com › Find a Doctor › Pennsylvania › Presto
Looking for Presto Dentist doctors? See top doctors, read unbiased reviews from real people, check out before and after photos, and ask questions at RealSelf.

But on a more serious note, Presto is governed by the same Ontario Privacy Legislation, as well as Federal, as all provincially accredited and regulated agencies are.

I realize the point wasn't handed to you in simple words, but the link was provided, as well as my stating "Example".

Presto Card is an agency of Metrolinx, incorporated under a Provincial Act:
Metrolinx Act, 2006, S.O. 2006, c. 16 - Ontario.ca


Here's from Metrolinx' privacy page:
Metrolinx is committed to maintaining the accuracy, security and privacy of the personal information we collect and use, in accordance with the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. In order to meet this commitment, we have developed and adhere to this Privacy Policy. This Privacy Policy applies to the business and activities of Metrolinx and its divisions, including GO Transit, PRESTO and Union Pearson Express.

By submitting your personal information to Metrolinx, you confirm your agreement to the terms and conditions of this Privacy Policy.

[...]
5. Disclosure of Personal Information
Metrolinx may from time to time provide your personal information to third parties that we work with to provide our products and services or who have a need to know the information for one of the purposes described above. This may include circumstances where:

• 
  
  
  • aggregated data is provided to third parties for the purposes of planning, developing, implementing, marketing or promoting Metrolinx services, or for research, statistical, planning and actuarial purposes;
  • disclosure is required or permitted by law or pursuant to a court order; or
  • disclosure to a third party is reasonably required to facilitate the provision of our products or services.

Third parties includes various organizations with whom we work to provide products and services to you, including contractors and other service providers, affiliates, municipalities, and other government agencies. We will not transfer personal information to third parties unless they have agreed to comply with all applicable privacy standards, including this Privacy Policy and FIPPA.
[...]
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/aboutus/privacy.aspx

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Can TTC customers get a fare evasion ticket if they board on a vehicle with a broken Presto machine and then transfer to a second vehicle?

Specifically, I boarded a Lawrence East bus without paying fare, as it had non-functional Presto readers. I then transferred to Line 1 at Eglinton Station. Obviously there was no opportunity to pay fare at Eglinton without exiting the station. If a TEO had inspected me on the subway, would I have gotten a ticket?

Also, if Presto isn't working on the 510 when I board, what happens to passengers that are inspected at Union or Spadina Station?

 

[nfitz]

I realize the point wasn't handed to you in simple words, but the link was provided, as well as my stating "Example".

Yes, I realize - but there are no comparative examples in law. And you went an ... interesting direction last time we had a discussion like this. I honestly don't have time to think about it to be honest right now.

 

[Megaton327]

Can TTC customers get a fare evasion ticket if they board on a vehicle with a broken Presto machine and then transfer to a second vehicle?

Specifically, I boarded a Lawrence East bus without paying fare, as it had non-functional Presto readers. I then transferred to Line 1 at Eglinton Station. Obviously there was no opportunity to pay fare at Eglinton without exiting the station. If a TEO had inspected me on the subway, would I have gotten a ticket?

Also, if Presto isn't working on the 510 when I board, what happens to passengers that are inspected at Union or Spadina Station?

Line 1 is not a POP route. You are not required to have POP while in the fare paid area of any subway station or on any train, with the exception that you can be inspected as you disembark a proof of payment vehicle in the station. Currently, as far as I know, no bus routes are officially POP, so this only applies to streetcars--for instance, as you get off a car at Spadina, Union, or Broadview, they can inspect your fare. Getting off a bus you're not subject to it, but even if you were, once you're on the subway--or in any part of the station where it's conceivable you could have gotten there other than by exiting a vehicle--you aren't required to have, and can't be required to show, POP.

 

[nfitz]

Also, if Presto isn't working on the 510 when I board, what happens to passengers that are inspected at Union or Spadina Station?

Good question. In general they'll quickly realize that no one has tapped, and can confirm in the car for themselves.

Though there's been one case reported somewhere (here), a relatively lightly loaded vehicle arrived, everyone else had passes or transfers, and the one person who hadn't tapped hadn't explained himself before the vehicle left again, and got ticketed.

Presumably though, as time progresses, there will be less of this, with greater Presto uptake. In addition, in the last 3 months, I've only seen a single vehicle with a failed reader (oddly it had two). So that situation is getting better. It's hard to imagine that all 6 readers will be out. And if they are, when the customer challenges the fine, it's easy enough to check the records and see that no one on that car tapped.

 

[WillTo]

Personally I'm taking a photo if I encounter a broken presto machine.

 

[DSC]

PRESTO at its best! (From TTC page listing all bus routes)

PRESTO card customers require a paper transfer on the following routes. Transfers must be shown to station staff when entering Union or Royal York stations and to operators when boarding these buses. Please make sure you obtain a paper transfer at the start of your trip.

• 15 Evans
• 121 Fort York
• 72 Pape

• 48 Rathburn
• 73 Royal York
• 76 Royal York South

Clearly PRESTO cannot deal with the TTCs crazy transfer rules. There is a simple solution - timed transfers!

 

[rbt]

Clearly PRESTO cannot deal with the TTCs crazy transfer rules. There is a simple solution - timed transfers!

The vendor agreed to implement TTCs wacky transfer rules. If the vendor cannot deliver a product meeting those rules then the vendor needs to pay for the change in policy. It's not really a TTC problem to solve.

 

[Megaton327]

The vendor agreed to implement TTCs wacky transfer rules. If the vendor cannot deliver a product meeting those rules then the vendor needs to pay for the change in policy. It's not really a TTC problem to solve.

The TTC does not HAVE a set of transfer rules for the vendor to implement! The day the TTC sends Presto a comprehensive, 100% accurate, no-exceptions transfer policy, I'm sure they'll work on implementing it, or we can complain about it if not.

However, the TTC transfer "policy" is a set of general rules, with tons of exceptions that change on a near-daily basis and at the near-complete discretion of their drivers and fare enforcers.

 

[goreckm]

The TTC does not HAVE a set of transfer rules for the vendor to implement! The day the TTC sends Presto a comprehensive, 100% accurate, no-exceptions transfer policy, I'm sure they'll work on implementing it, or we can complain about it if not.

However, the TTC transfer "policy" is a set of general rules, with tons of exceptions that change on a near-daily basis and at the near-complete discretion of their drivers and fare enforcers.

But, the TTC does have transfer rules, and they are clearly defined. It shouldn't be TTC's problem that it requires human validation, and the fact that PRESTO agreed to implement those rules. If PRESTO cannot implement these rules, which indeed, are not very friendly for digitization, then they should pay a contract breach fee, or maybe agree to subsidize 2-hour transfers for the length of PRESTO usage on the TTC. Or, alternatively, maybe they can build an AI that would be able to figure out these edge cases. That would be interesting indeed.

 

[cplchanb]

But, the TTC does have transfer rules, and they are clearly defined. It shouldn't be TTC's problem that it requires human validation, and the fact that PRESTO agreed to implement those rules. If PRESTO cannot implement these rules, which indeed, are not very friendly for digitization, then they should pay a contract breach fee, or maybe agree to subsidize 2-hour transfers for the length of PRESTO usage on the TTC. Or, alternatively, maybe they can build an AI that would be able to figure out these edge cases. That would be interesting indeed.

well, the fact is, smart cards in general were designed either for single usage or timed transfers. Unless theres some sort of gps chip inside, they cannot detect if somebody gets off at royal york to get on the 48. So this really is more the case of
inadequate infrastructure or poor management to handle the busses for single uses or a further reason to give timed transfers.

 

[DSC]

But, the TTC does have transfer rules, and they are clearly defined. It shouldn't be TTC's problem that it requires human validation, and the fact that PRESTO agreed to implement those rules. If PRESTO cannot implement these rules, which indeed, are not very friendly for digitization, then they should pay a contract breach fee, or maybe agree to subsidize 2-hour transfers for the length of PRESTO usage on the TTC. Or, alternatively, maybe they can build an AI that would be able to figure out these edge cases. That would be interesting indeed.

The transfer rules are obviously NOT clearly defined (or obvious).. If they were they would be able to cope with the Union Station and Royal York cases above. The TTC is getting rid of paper transfers so their ad hoc solution will be short-lived. What will they do then? In fact, how does a customer on a new streetcar who uses PRESTO get a transfer?