[MetroMan]

Because they were "causing the machines to be unreliable".

In the most recent (April 2019) CEO's report on page 62, you can see that the reliability of these PRESTO Fares and Transfer Machines increased from about 90% in November to 98.6% in February. They also note that they are replacing the current machines, subject to Metrolinx's schedule to roll them out.

I'd hope they restore debit/credit once they have the new machines in. I haven't seen any yet personally, though they say eight have been installed.

View attachment 179957

They look like this and don’t have any debit/credit card capabilities:

It’s incredible that they had to go find old coin operated technology to replace the brand new touch screen ticket machines. A multi billion dollar agency that is incapable of hiring qualified IT professionals?

What’s worse: these ticket machines will have to be replaced yet again at some point soon to install ones that dispense paper PRESTO rfid tickets that allow people to enter stations once transfers are discontinued and the system is automated.

 

[nfitz]

They look like this and don’t have any debit/credit card capabilities:

Those aren't the eight Metrolinx machines that they've started to put in recently.

Those are a third type - there's probably a hundred or so of those machines - and they first appeared on streetcars back in '14 or so, before the first Metrolinx machines appeared. That's the emergency stop-gap that TTC developed years ago, before the Presto deal was made, that they seem to have brought out of mothballs to fill in for Metrolinx's failure to get their machines working!

Aren't those similar to the two machines that TTC installed at Pearson airport back in 2010?

Yes, we discussed this further up the thread back in 2014 when they first appeared on streetcars. See my earlier 2014 post - https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/metrolinx-presto-fare-card.4286/post-907434

Here's the machines from 2010.

 

[cplchanb]

Honestly....how hard is this?? Why cant they sort their shit out or ask for help from any of the other systems around the world (oyster, octopus, IC)?
Are they that stuck up of themselves to demand that everything must be done in house and locally sourced talent (which honestly is lacking)? 3 different units in 5 years... whether its ML or TTC or bbr,
its just plain incompetence on all fronts.

 

[johntauren]

Honestly....how hard is this?? Why cant they sort their shit out or ask for help from any of the other systems around the world (oyster, octopus, IC)?
Are they that stuck up of themselves to demand that everything must be done in house and locally sourced talent (which honestly is lacking)? 3 different units in 5 years... whether its ML or TTC or bbr,
its just plain incompetence on all fronts.

It's not the presto system that's the problem (in this case), it's the payment machine which is mostly unrelated to Presto.

I wonder if the debit/credit problem was just that it wasn't reliably connected to the network to run cards because the location isn't fixed.

 

[MetroMan]

It's not the presto system that's the problem (in this case), it's the payment machine which is mostly unrelated to Presto.

I wonder if the debit/credit problem was just that it wasn't reliably connected to the network to run cards because the location isn't fixed.

In the close to 10 years that I’ve been accepting payments via Square, I’ve never once had any difficulty connecting to the server from anywhere around Toronto on an iPhone. And way back then I was using 3G technology at best, often dropping to 2G/Edge.

The data packets to perform a debit or credit transaction are smaller than a text message which can reliably be sent with even a poor quality cellular connection.

This isn’t an availability of technology problem. It’s just sheer incompetence in designing the system with available technology.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Information on

Fare Policy Changes: PRESTO Tickets

at this link.

This report recommends four fare policies which will support the transition to PRESTO.​

​

The first establishes the pricing model for limited-use PRESTO Tickets which looks to uphold PRESTO fare pricing principles and encourage PRESTO card adoption (e-Purse and passes). Those seeking a single fare option will be able to use PRESTO Tickets to pay their fare on all modes, gain access through fare gates and benefit from the two-hour transfer available on PRESTO.​

​

The second policy establishes the specified expiry date for PRESTO Tickets while the third seeks to establish an exchange policy for PRESTO Tickets that are unused past their expiry date.​

​

We also introduce the Day Pass PRESTO Ticket for infrequent TTC customers or those anticipating multiple trips in a day, beyond those covered with the two-hour transfer.​

​

Recommendations​

​

It is recommended that the Board:​

​

Approve the following fare policies as outlined in the Comments section in this report:​

​

1. Allow for PRESTO one-ride and two-ride Tickets to be priced as a single fare, equivalent to the adult cash price​

​

2. Allow the sale of a Day Pass PRESTO Ticket as follows:​

a. valid for one (1) person entry;​

b. valid for unlimited travel between the hours of 3:00 a.m. until 2:59 a.m. the following business day;​

c. price aligned with legacy TTC Day Pass; and​

d. available for use any day of the week, including statutory holidays​

​

3. Allow for PRESTO Tickets to expire as follows:​

a. in 90 days after purchase for those purchased at subway stations (Fare Vending Machines [FVMs]), Shoppers Drug Mart (retail channels), TTC Customer Service; and​

b. in one (1) year after issue for bulk purchases​

​

4. Allow for exchanges to be provided for expired and unused PRESTO Tickets as follows:​

a. exchanges for valid fare of equal value; and​

b. exchanges up to one (1) year after expiry only​

 

[nfitz]

This isn’t an availability of technology problem. It’s just sheer incompetence in designing the system with available technology.

No arguments there - that Metrolinx and Cubic have taken 5 years to fix this issue says everything.

And the solution is pulling out all the machines, and replacing them with a new design. So clearly a major systemic design of some kind!

 

[Tuscani01]

Information on

Fare Policy Changes: PRESTO Tickets

at this link.

This report recommends four fare policies which will support the transition to PRESTO.​

​

The first establishes the pricing model for limited-use PRESTO Tickets which looks to uphold PRESTO fare pricing principles and encourage PRESTO card adoption (e-Purse and passes). Those seeking a single fare option will be able to use PRESTO Tickets to pay their fare on all modes, gain access through fare gates and benefit from the two-hour transfer available on PRESTO.​

​

The second policy establishes the specified expiry date for PRESTO Tickets while the third seeks to establish an exchange policy for PRESTO Tickets that are unused past their expiry date.​

​

We also introduce the Day Pass PRESTO Ticket for infrequent TTC customers or those anticipating multiple trips in a day, beyond those covered with the two-hour transfer.​

​

Recommendations​

​

It is recommended that the Board:​

​

Approve the following fare policies as outlined in the Comments section in this report:​

​

1. Allow for PRESTO one-ride and two-ride Tickets to be priced as a single fare, equivalent to the adult cash price​

​

2. Allow the sale of a Day Pass PRESTO Ticket as follows:​

a. valid for one (1) person entry;​

b. valid for unlimited travel between the hours of 3:00 a.m. until 2:59 a.m. the following business day;​

c. price aligned with legacy TTC Day Pass; and​

d. available for use any day of the week, including statutory holidays​

​

3. Allow for PRESTO Tickets to expire as follows:​

a. in 90 days after purchase for those purchased at subway stations (Fare Vending Machines [FVMs]), Shoppers Drug Mart (retail channels), TTC Customer Service; and​

b. in one (1) year after issue for bulk purchases​

​

4. Allow for exchanges to be provided for expired and unused PRESTO Tickets as follows:​

a. exchanges for valid fare of equal value; and​

b. exchanges up to one (1) year after expiry only​

So goodbye being able to get 2 adults + up to 3 children on a single day pass?

 

[raptor]

So goodbye being able to get 2 adults + up to 3 children on a single day pass?

considering children ride free, and a return trip for 2 adults is $12.40 (less than the current $13 day pass), this will not affect most people (families).

 

[MetroMan]

2. Allow the sale of a Day Pass PRESTO Ticket as follows:​

​

b. valid for unlimited travel between the hours of 3:00 a.m. until 2:59 a.m. the following business day;​

​

​

​

​

I’m glad they did the right thing with this. Establishing a day pass from midnight to midnight would have unfairly cost some people an extra fare if they went out at night and ended their day after midnight.

 

[DSC]

From Star: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2019/04/05/ttcs-full-transition-to-presto-may-be-delayed-again.html


The TTC’s full transition to the Presto fare card system may be delayed again, with the agency now saying it doesn’t know when it will complete the switch.

Last summer, the TTC said it would stop selling older fare media such as tickets and tokens by August 2019, and stop accepting them by the end of this year.

The TTC was supposed to stop selling tickets and tokens in August 2019 and stop accepting them by the end of the year, but in a report released Thursday the agency said “those dates have now been put on hold.”

But in a report released Thursday, the TTC said “those dates have now been put on hold ... No definitive decisions have been made on a new stop selling/stop accepting date at this time.”

The statements were buried midway through the report, which is about formalizing the TTC’s policy to introduce disposable paper Presto tickets.

The “limited-use” tickets would replace tokens and are designed to allow customers to pay for one or two rides at a time without having to buy a permanent Presto card. The agency began selling them at two subway stations this week.

In an email, TTC spokesperson Heather Brown said the agency decided to pause the phaseout of older payment forms because the organization hasn’t yet finalized policies to ensure social service agencies that currently buy tokens in bulk to give their low-income clients aren’t negatively affected by the switch to Presto tickets.

 

[nfitz]

considering children ride free, and a return trip for 2 adults is $12.40 (less than the current $13 day pass), this will not affect most people (families).

It certainly has more impact when you have more than 2 trips in a day, or your kids are older than 12.

What I don't get, is that they said they could back away from their daily rate capping promise, because it really didn't add much when 4 "2-hour" tickets was cheaper, and few people would need 5 in a day.

So why then introduce a paper one-day Presto ticket that's only for good for 1 person? It seems they are talking out of both sides of their mouth on this.

And what happened to the weekly rate capping, that they said was coming soon, and was the reason they couldn't do daily rate capping?

 

[littlewill1166]

They look like this and don’t have any debit/credit card capabilities:

View attachment 179972

It’s incredible that they had to go find old coin operated technology to replace the brand new touch screen ticket machines. A multi billion dollar agency that is incapable of hiring qualified IT professionals?

What’s worse: these ticket machines will have to be replaced yet again at some point soon to install ones that dispense paper PRESTO rfid tickets that allow people to enter stations once transfers are discontinued and the system is automated.

I swear that these are just glorified parking meters.

 

[Megaton327]

It certainly has more impact when you have more than 2 trips in a day, or your kids are older than 12.

What I don't get, is that they said they could back away from their daily rate capping promise, because it really didn't add much when 4 "2-hour" tickets was cheaper, and few people would need 5 in a day.

So why then introduce a paper one-day Presto ticket that's only for good for 1 person? It seems they are talking out of both sides of their mouth on this.

And what happened to the weekly rate capping, that they said was coming soon, and was the reason they couldn't do daily rate capping?

The day pass ticket is useful for 1 person because, keep in mind, cash fare riders are not eligible for the 2 hour transfer, they are subject to the old rules of a single continuous net-one-way trip with no stopovers. A presto rider would have to take distinct rides in each 2 hour period for 10 hours of the day, a cash rider could easily hit 5 fares in 3 hours or so, realistically.

Weekly rate capping is delayed probably because the TTC can never get anything working right with Presto quickly. And yes, it is mutually exclusive with daily rate capping, apparently Presto can only handle one "loyalty program" per transit agency, in the TTC's case, they decided to go with weekly, since daily is largely superfluous with the 2-hour transfer (I agree with them on this).

 

[nfitz]

I swear that these are just glorified parking meters.

same vendor I think. They seem more reliable! There was some discussion further up the thread about those machines somewhere between 2010 and 2014.

I just saw this machine - two in brand new streetcar 4531. At first glance they look like the old machine, but if you look closely they don't have the Green Presto transfer tap thing. And they start with a 5350 ID number and not a 5300 ID that you usually see.

Perhaps these are the "new" machines?

I saw 2 broken 5300 machines today! And that was the only two other Flexitys I rode today! Perhaps they don't like the this week's higher TTC fares!