[Rainforest]

This is why the Sheppard LRT should be placed on hold for the time being.

Possibly, that's the right choice. In the short term, some improvement in this corridor can be achieved simply by expanding the express bus service on Sheppard East. In addition to #190 to STC, we can have express routes to the east end / the Zoo, and to Malvern Centre.

Sheppard bus routes, both E and W, are not even close to being the busiest on the system.

 

[Steve X]

The Sheppard Subway extension is a pipe dream. It's more politically contentious than any other project in the City, it's going to cost more than $5 Billion, and it's impossible to make it work within the existing network. The Yonge Line is full, so neither the Yonge North exrneision nor the Sheppard Subway extension can move forward without relief. Unlike the SSE, Sheppard's problems aren't only low ridership, but also that it'll break our transit network, including the GTA's most important transit line.

The Relief Line exitension to Sheppard won't be operational to the early 2030s at the absolute earliest. So we're probably looking at around 20 years at the earliest, for any extension of the Sheppard Subway. Maybe sooner if the Relief Line and Sheppard Subway are bundled as a single project and built concurrently (good luck finding the money $12+ Billion).

We better get used to the Sheppard Stub. It's not going away any time soon. On the bright side, the Relief Line Long looks to be far more beneficial to area commuters than the Sheppard Subway would have been.

The Sheppard Subway was designed for commuters to travel between the two future city cores namely North York Centre and Scarborough Centre. Those two cores haven't develop maturely before amalgamation occurred and stopped completely since the 90s recession. The only new development are condos but not business towers required to support them to becoming mature cores. Since the city cores don't exist, this subway shouldn't either. The Sheppard line was never intended for people to use it to commute downtown in conjunction of the Yonge line!

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Sheppard Subway could be extended... as a continuation of the Downtown Relief Line... with an extension westward afterwards even.

 

[Palma]

This was exactly part of the rationale for the Sheppard subway: a transit line parallel to the 401 and close to it to relieve the highway.

But they didn't end up finishing it. And now the corridor may involve a bus, an LRT, a subway and another bus. Switch the thing to LRT and go end-to-end.

it never made sense to put the subway along Sheppard. It should have gone along Finch. Sheppard in the west ends at Weston Rd, there is a bridge from Bathurst to west of Avenue Rd so no houses or condos to draw people along that stretch. Condos that are along there form Dufferin to Bathurst are low rise. I do encounter traffic east and west of Bathurst but I usually find it smooth sailing. Whenever I need to go east I always go to Sheppard to drive east. Now perhaps east of Yonge Sheppard is busier but since ridership on Sheppard subway is not great to me it confirms that Finch would have been the better route.

 

[Palma]

The Sheppard Subway was designed for commuters to travel between the two future city cores namely North York Centre and Scarborough Centre. Those two cores haven't develop maturely before amalgamation occurred and stopped completely since the 90s recession. The only new development are condos but not business towers required to support them to becoming mature cores. Since the city cores don't exist, this subway shouldn't either. The Sheppard line was never intended for people to use it to commute downtown in conjunction of the Yonge line!

[QUOTE="

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Sheppard Subway was designed for commuters to travel between the two future city cores namely North York Centre and Scarborough Centre. Those two cores haven't develop maturely before amalgamation occurred and stopped completely since the 90s recession. The only new development are condos but not business towers required to support them to becoming mature cores. Since the city cores don't exist, this subway shouldn't either. The Sheppard line was never intended for people to use it to commute downtown in conjunction of the Yonge line!

Even in a optimistic world I see the drl as the priority and the long version at least 30 years from completion. There is no doubt as much as It is needed there will be plan changes, and delayed funding. If drl has to be completed first then Sheppard is a long way off

The Sheppard Subway extension is a pipe dream. It's more politically contentious than any other project in the City, it's going to cost more than $5 Billion, and it's impossible to make it work within the existing network. The Yonge Line is full, so neither the Yonge North exrneision nor the Sheppard Subway extension can move forward without relief. Unlike the SSE, Sheppard's problems aren't only low ridership, but also that it'll break our transit network, including the GTA's most important transit line.

The Relief Line exitension to Sheppard won't be operational to the early 2030s at the absolute earliest. So we're probably looking at around 20 years at the earliest, for any extension of the Sheppard Subway. Maybe sooner if the Relief Line and Sheppard Subway are bundled as a single project and built concurrently (good luck finding the money $12+ Billion).

We better get used to the Sheppard Stub. It's not going away any time soon. On the bright side, the Relief Line Long looks to be far more beneficial to area commuters than the Sheppard Subway would have been.

If this was a pipe dream, no one would be talking about this. The bloor danforth extension was a pipe dream, but because yet again the smart guys didn't make the case to public, it was voted for and funded. The big bend was a hoax, the point Glenn was making is that we can't bend the Bloor subway so now we have to extend sheppard east. The bend would have cause overflow north of STC and thus artificial demand for a progress station, which then Scarborough politicians would demand a connection to agincourt and so on. Don't be surprised to see this get to a council vote sooner or later.

 

[sixrings]

To be clear, my thirty to forty year eta is the construction start date. I am sure that there will be years Of promises, studying and planning which gives the illusion of immediate construction but is really delay delay delay. Politicians like to get votes pretending to advocate for something they know is to far off to deliver and voters like to vote for things deep down don't make sense

If this was a pipe dream, no one would be talking about this. The bloor danforth extension was a pipe dream, but because yet again the smart guys didn't make the case to public, it was voted for and funded. The big bend was a hoax, the point Glenn was making is that we can't bend the Bloor subway so now we have to extend sheppard east. The bend would have cause overflow north of STC and thus artificial demand for a progress station, which then Scarborough politicians would demand a connection to agincourt and so on. Don't be surprised to see this get to a council vote sooner or later.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

So, lets say the extension goes through. I doubt they'll extend all the way across Sheppard - more likely down to the STC. So then, does the Sheppard LRT disappear, or does a shorted version go the rest of the way to Malvern, and meet up with the Malvern LRT there? I think that would be pretty good - Sheppard becomes less of a stub, Malvern is stilled served, and theres high order transit across all of Scarborough.

Ridership can easily be served by a frequent bus route. No need for LRT, because even if LRT has cheaper operating costs than bus routes, it still wouldn't be enough to justify the capital cost.

 

[Steve X]

Ridership can easily be served by a frequent bus route. No need for LRT, because even if LRT has cheaper operating costs than bus routes, it still wouldn't be enough to justify the capital cost.

Just bus lanes in trouble spots would solve the current problem. Convert the 85 to POP and remove some stops if they must. The 85 isn't even that frequent for conversion to LRT.

The whole transit city plan had another goal besides carrying people. It includes serving priority (low income) neighbourhoods and triggering mid-raise development along the corridors. Everyone just cares about speed and subways that doesn't achieve any of these goals. No rapid transit to Malvern FAIL! No mid-rise development FAIL! No urbanization of Sheppard Avenue FAIL! No bike lanes for the future mode of transportation FAIL!

The Sheppard subway extension is such an old and outdated plan. A LRT has a much higher chance of transforming Sheppard to a more urbanized boulevard but instead some people prefer a subway that would maintain Sheppard's suburban feel. They might as well stay with buses and forever stay in the 20th century if they're going to argue for a subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto's transit landscape has fundamentally changed since the Sheppard Line was introduced.

As someone upthread reminded us, the Sheppard Subway was meant to link North York Centre and Scarborough Centre, both of which were planned to have formidable downtown cores. Of course, that never materialized, and few people are under any illusion that those former boroughs will have a sizeable downtown core. We also know that very few trips are made between these two points.

Furthermore, we will have several new lines bleeding peak hour/peak point ridership from the Sheppard Subway. This includes the Relief Line, GO RER and eventually the Line 2 extension. Ridership for the Sheppard Subway extension when Line 2, Relief Line and GO RER weren't planned to connect, was estimated at around 7,000 pphpd at Yonge. It might not even be half of that with all these new connections to the Sheppard Line bleeding ridership away (my guesstimation). I'm not even confident it would have the ridership to support LRT at this point (the LRT would be subject to the same downward pressures on ridership).

The best thing for Sheppard at the moment would be BRT linking Yonge, Relief Line, RER and Line 2, with the BRT terminating somewhere near the Toronto Zoo. In the future we might be able to built a Sheppard Subway extension on the surface and inexpensively, but that's not something I envision happening soon.

 

[Cobra]

Toronto's transit landscape has fundamentally changed since the Sheppard Line was introduced.

As someone upthread reminded us, the Sheppard Subway was meant to link North York Centre and Scarborough Centre, both of which were planned to have formidable downtown cores. Of course, that never materialized, and few people are under any illusion that those former boroughs will have a sizeable downtown core. We also know that very few trips are made between these two points.

Furthermore, we will have several new lines bleeding peak hour/peak point ridership from the Sheppard Subway. This includes the Relief Line, GO RER and eventually the Line 2 extension. Ridership for the Sheppard Subway extension when Line 2, Relief Line and GO RER weren't planned to connect, was estimated at around 7,000 pphpd at Yonge. It might not even be half of that with all these new connections to the Sheppard Line bleeding ridership away (my guesstimation). I'm not even confident it would have the ridership to support LRT at this point (the LRT would be subject to the same downward pressures on ridership).

The best thing for Sheppard at the moment would be BRT linking Yonge, Relief Line, RER and Line 2, with the BRT terminating somewhere near the Toronto Zoo. In the future we might be able to built a Sheppard Subway extension on the surface and inexpensively, but that's not something I envision happening soon.

Have you been there at peak hour? Most people will agree that the Sheppard Line is fairly used during rush hour and to my surprise, even sometime off-peak. However, the logic of closing the line at 2am instead of midnight and not running trains every 7-8 minutes instead of 5 or better off-peak is truly puzzling. The Montreal Blue line was shutdown at 11h15pm back in the days until ridership warranted more trains at a later time.

As for both centre not becoming booming downtowns, we'll never know as the line was never built the way it was envisioned, meaning that pointing at those 2 centre and saying "they failed" is a bit misleading. Sure the objective wasn't met but the two center were never connected either.

I think for now, just leave it as is, we have other priorities and revisit the file later.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

As for both centre not becoming booming downtowns, we'll never know as the line was never built the way it was envisioned, meaning that pointing at those 2 centre and saying "they failed" is a bit misleading. Sure the objective wasn't met but the two center were never connected either.

Toronto has a long list of other places desperately in need of transit. Attempting to build two more downtowns to justify a subway line is ridiculous. Meet the demand where it exists, before trying to create more demand elsewhere, would be wise.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Have you been there at peak hour? Most people will agree that the Sheppard Line is fairly used during rush hour and to my surprise, even sometime off-peak. However, the logic of closing the line at 2am instead of midnight and not running trains every 7-8 minutes instead of 5 or better off-peak is truly puzzling. The Montreal Blue line was shutdown at 11h15pm back in the days until ridership warranted more trains at a later time.

It definitely appears to be fairly used during rush hour, but passenger counts tell a different story. Appearances can be deceiving because of the lower frequency of the line and smaller trains.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Toronto's transit landscape has fundamentally changed since the Sheppard Line was introduced.

As someone upthread reminded us, the Sheppard Subway was meant to link North York Centre and Scarborough Centre, both of which were planned to have formidable downtown cores. Of course, that never materialized, and few people are under any illusion that those former boroughs will have a sizeable downtown core. We also know that very few trips are made between these two points.

Furthermore, we will have several new lines bleeding peak hour/peak point ridership from the Sheppard Subway. This includes the Relief Line, GO RER and eventually the Line 2 extension. Ridership for the Sheppard Subway extension when Line 2, Relief Line and GO RER weren't planned to connect, was estimated at around 7,000 pphpd at Yonge. It might not even be half of that with all these new connections to the Sheppard Line bleeding ridership away (my guesstimation). I'm not even confident it would have the ridership to support LRT at this point (the LRT would be subject to the same downward pressures on ridership).

The best thing for Sheppard at the moment would be BRT linking Yonge, Relief Line, RER and Line 2, with the BRT terminating somewhere near the Toronto Zoo. In the future we might be able to built a Sheppard Subway extension on the surface and inexpensively, but that's not something I envision happening soon.

So you're proposing a Sheppard BRT to Meadowvale Road. Would it run in the road median or on one side of the roadway? The ridership of the BRT would be pretty low if you're using stop spacing like the 190 rocket bus. Would there be mid block stops, if not, will a Curbside route be required?

I feel like the Sheppard BRT will not have a dedicated route, but different routes will use the ROW instead.

 

[Steve X]

Have you been there at peak hour? Most people will agree that the Sheppard Line is fairly used during rush hour and to my surprise, even sometime off-peak. However, the logic of closing the line at 2am instead of midnight and not running trains every 7-8 minutes instead of 5 or better off-peak is truly puzzling. The Montreal Blue line was shutdown at 11h15pm back in the days until ridership warranted more trains at a later time.

As for both centre not becoming booming downtowns, we'll never know as the line was never built the way it was envisioned, meaning that pointing at those 2 centre and saying "they failed" is a bit misleading. Sure the objective wasn't met but the two center were never connected either.

I think for now, just leave it as is, we have other priorities and revisit the file later.

Have you notice the demand on the counter peak direction? 3 seats for everyone. Ridership stats has shown the line haven't even grown while the rest of the system is growing. Sheppard is still running with 4 short trains like it did back in 2002 shows ridership haven't really grown. Mostly everyone gets a seat on the Sheppard line even in rush hour oppose to standing in a tight spot on the two other lines. In TTC standards, 40% of the people should be standing in rush hour. If the subway ran more frequent in rush hour, then I'll agree it's busy. Right now, if they ran 6 car trains at Line 1 headways, everyone would have 5 seats for their backpack, luggage and whatever they bring onboard. The line has the same number of ridership as the Spadina streetcar. TTC didn't even order more TRs for the line expecting it not to grow. It seems somewhat busy in rush hour, but numbers show otherwise.

By keeping the line open at 2am is to provide a service to people in needs oppose to profiting. It's a left-wing socialist thing. Some people agree, some don't. TTC has a long written hidden policy to keep rapid transit lines operating at 5 minutes and better between 6-1am to maintain attractiveness instead of maximizing revenue. TTC exist to keep the city moving not making revenue. However that's debatable with all their delays.

I think most people will agree Scabrorough centre haven't seen any recent development. It hasn't failed completely but it hasn't succeeded. Subways don't necessary drive development. Majority of Line 2 still looks the same like the 60s. The Spadina line haven't seen any development since be completed in 1978 except St Clair West. That's probably bloom due to the proximity near downtown. Even the St Clair streetcar line is bring in mid rises along St Clair. Sheppard line got a bunch of condos can be due to the surrounding and being close to the 401. If Scarbrough Cemtre starts blooming again with the Scarborough subway, maybe it'll make more sense to extend Sheppard.