Cobra
Senior Member
All this conversion talk is lunacy. It ain't happening.
|
|
|
- Thread starter Le Gique
- Start date
JSF-1
Active Member
If we were going to convert the Sheppard Line to a Light Metro like the OL I would do it in 3 steps (or phases if you will)
PHASE 1: Construction of the western extension to Sheppard West
This would have to be built first since a converted Sheppard Line would need a place to store and maintain its trains and Downsview Aiport is the only place with land suitable for this. This phase would take a couple of years and would see the construction of stations at Senlac, Bathurst, Faywood, and Sheppard West as well as a storage and maintenance facility on the Downsview Airport lands somewhere (probably part of the Wilson Complex). During this phase there would be no impact to current Sheppard Subway service with the exception of converting the westbound platform at Sheppard-Yonge (the one that is rarely used) to the new track gauge and catenary, this is important for later. As well this extension and conversion would obviously need to be built to the current Sheppard Line tunnel diameter since we can't re-dig those tunnels.
PHASE 2: Conversion of the current Sheppard Line to the new standard
In this phase the current Sheppard Line between Sheppard-Yonge and Don Mills would be shut down for at most 6 to 8 months since work here would simply be re-gauging the tracks to standard guage and installing overhead catenary (the new signalling system could hold things up) but given how short the Sheppard Line is and the fact the line would be closed any impacts on timelines should be negligible (however this is Toronto after all). The exception to this shut down would be the one platform converted at Sheppard-Yonge station back in Phase 1. This is done to allow trains to begin operating between Sheppard West and Sheppard Station; its not much but it would show the public that progress is being made and that this whole idea isn't complete lunacy. Obviously shuttle buses would replace Sheppard Subway service for the months the conversion takes
PHASE 3: Extension East to Scarborough Town Centre (If applicable)
In this phase the conversion work would be done and trains would begin operating fully between Sheppard West and Don Mills station. If the OL has already made it to Don Mills then a connection between the two line should have been built during the phase 2 conversion. If the OL hasn't made it yet or the OL isn't planned to go to Don Mills (or worse we've compleltly bungled it and built the OL Station elevated) then the connection track will be built duing this phase (or not at all in the elevated case). The only thing left to do would be to extend the line east to the Scarborough Town Centre at this point.
It can be done however it would need a concerted effort and an understanding that once work begins on Phase 1 there is no going back. You could just do Phase 1 and 2 and then call it a day and have the line run between Sheppard West and Don Mills and since the west extension would be built to the pre-existing standard on the Sheppard Line if at somepoint we decide this OL tech isn't working for us, well running the extension with TR's would also be possible. At that point however we've just extended the subway west like it was originally planned with no difference at all. Once we start laying track and stringing wire on the western extension that is the point of no return and we are committed to converting the Sheppard Line to the new trains. Any decision to use TR's on the western extension to Sheppard West and continual use on the current line has to be made before then.
PHASE 1: Construction of the western extension to Sheppard West
This would have to be built first since a converted Sheppard Line would need a place to store and maintain its trains and Downsview Aiport is the only place with land suitable for this. This phase would take a couple of years and would see the construction of stations at Senlac, Bathurst, Faywood, and Sheppard West as well as a storage and maintenance facility on the Downsview Airport lands somewhere (probably part of the Wilson Complex). During this phase there would be no impact to current Sheppard Subway service with the exception of converting the westbound platform at Sheppard-Yonge (the one that is rarely used) to the new track gauge and catenary, this is important for later. As well this extension and conversion would obviously need to be built to the current Sheppard Line tunnel diameter since we can't re-dig those tunnels.
PHASE 2: Conversion of the current Sheppard Line to the new standard
In this phase the current Sheppard Line between Sheppard-Yonge and Don Mills would be shut down for at most 6 to 8 months since work here would simply be re-gauging the tracks to standard guage and installing overhead catenary (the new signalling system could hold things up) but given how short the Sheppard Line is and the fact the line would be closed any impacts on timelines should be negligible (however this is Toronto after all). The exception to this shut down would be the one platform converted at Sheppard-Yonge station back in Phase 1. This is done to allow trains to begin operating between Sheppard West and Sheppard Station; its not much but it would show the public that progress is being made and that this whole idea isn't complete lunacy. Obviously shuttle buses would replace Sheppard Subway service for the months the conversion takes
PHASE 3: Extension East to Scarborough Town Centre (If applicable)
In this phase the conversion work would be done and trains would begin operating fully between Sheppard West and Don Mills station. If the OL has already made it to Don Mills then a connection between the two line should have been built during the phase 2 conversion. If the OL hasn't made it yet or the OL isn't planned to go to Don Mills (or worse we've compleltly bungled it and built the OL Station elevated) then the connection track will be built duing this phase (or not at all in the elevated case). The only thing left to do would be to extend the line east to the Scarborough Town Centre at this point.
It can be done however it would need a concerted effort and an understanding that once work begins on Phase 1 there is no going back. You could just do Phase 1 and 2 and then call it a day and have the line run between Sheppard West and Don Mills and since the west extension would be built to the pre-existing standard on the Sheppard Line if at somepoint we decide this OL tech isn't working for us, well running the extension with TR's would also be possible. At that point however we've just extended the subway west like it was originally planned with no difference at all. Once we start laying track and stringing wire on the western extension that is the point of no return and we are committed to converting the Sheppard Line to the new trains. Any decision to use TR's on the western extension to Sheppard West and continual use on the current line has to be made before then.
Last edited:
Steve X
Senior Member
Have people not been to other cities where longer walks like this is a common thing?Worse would be the l-o-n-g w-a-l-k-i-n-g transfers. IE. The transfers between the Line 1 SPADINA and Line 2 SPADINA stations, where they "improved" the transfers by removing the moving sidewalk.
Before...
After,,,
From link.
Rainforest
Senior Member
That's a great plan.
But in Phase 2, I would consider running a single TR train shuttle on the southern (normally eastbound) track while the northern track and platforms are being converted, and then a single OL train shuttle on the converted northern track while the southern track is being converted. That would not serve all the demand, but would reduce the number of shuttle buses needed.
micheal_can
Senior Member
From what I am understanding, OL trains will be standard gauge trains. This is incompatible with TTC Gauge. If they are converted to LRVs, then they might end up with centenary power. This would mean there is no way to power the third rail trains. By keeping Sheppard as a subway with the existing technology, and by extending it, instead of using LRVs, you keep the section between Line 1 as a good option to transfer trains around as needed.
I hope you are right. I cannot understand why the conversion would be smarter than just extending it and making it useful. It is not like tunneling for an LRT line would be any easier.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Conversion removes the linear transfer. And it substantially reduces how much tunneling is required. Instead of tunneling all the way till McCowan, they just have to tunnel to cross the 404. The max might be a tunnel till Victoria Park (1.5 km). That means savings on the other 5.5 km from Victoria Park to McCowan.
Also, it's way too expensive to extend the subway past McCowan. Since LRT is a lot cheap, it also makes it feasible to extend another 10 km to the zoo.
micheal_can
Senior Member
So, road running?
Haydenpoon
Active Member
Is there anything that actually prevents the existing subway technology to run above-ground along Sheppard Avenue from Victoria Park to McCowan? It may need a longer distance to transition from below-to -above but other than that I couldn't think of anything else that would prevent running TRs east of Don Mills.
micheal_can
Senior Member
You mean like how it is between Eglinton and Yorkdale?
JSF-1
Active Member
No elevated like how the OL will be in Leaside or how the SRT is between Midland and McCowan, or how the Crosstown is planned to be between Mount Dennis and Royal York if and when the west extension is built.
micheal_can
Senior Member
I imagine it could be done, if there is enough space for it.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Partially yes. Just like Eglinton.
Really it's coming down to choice of having Sheppard East built out completely from Yonge to the zoo with LRT. Or a subway till McCowan and bus the rest of the way. Going west to Downsview will require a tunnel either way.
JSF-1
Active Member
When looking at an elevated alignment for Sheppard east of Don Mills to me I can see the elevated structure being put down the middle of the road, and if the stop at the Scarborough Town Centre was to be underground then there is a large empty parcel of land on the south side of the 401 west of Brimley that you could put the portal. On the other hand I do wonder where the western portal by Don Mills would be since nothing stands out immediately save for a centre median portal. Heading west from Sheppard-Yonge to Sheppard West on that extension there doesn't seem to be a way to elevate the line so that extension would almost certainly have to be underground save for the crossing of Earl Bales park.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Would Sheppard East go to STC if Line 2 is terminating at McCowan/Sheppard?
JSF-1
Active Member
In my opinion it really should since even with the stop at McCowan and Sheppard, STC would still be the "Central" hub for scarborough both in an economic sense but also a network sense. Even if some routes shift north, the number of routes that would remain at STC plus the GO Buses, Intercity Buses, and the proposed Durham BRT route would still in my opinion far out way terminating the line at McCowan and Sheppard. Metrolinx has been pushing the hub model for its projects for both ease of access to as many forms of transit as possible, but to also bring about development and STC to me is the main hub for Scarborough even with the Subway going to Sheppard.
Looking at the TTC map as it exists today I believe the bus connections to the stations would be as follows (obviosuly things can change by then).
McCowan and Sheppard (lets call it White Haven):
16 McCowan (if its extended north to Sheppard)
85 Sheppard East
129 McCowan North (this route could still run to STC or the 16 could be extended north to Sheppard)
130 Middlefield
131 Nugget
169 Huntingwood
939A,B Finch East Express
985 Sheppard East Express
Scarborough Town Centre:
9 Bellamy
16 McCowan
21 Brimley
38 Highland Creek
43B Kennedy
129 McCowan North (if it is extended south to STC)
132 Milner
133 Neilson
134 Progress
178 Brimorton (assuming the route is successful)
903 Brimley Express (assming the route isn't dissolved with the SSE opening)
913 Progress Express
GO Bus Routes
Intercity Bus Lines (i.e Greyhound, Coach Canada, Megabus, etc.)
Durham Region BRT line (and whatever route(s) may utilize it)
As well i do wonder if there could be a branch of the 95 York Mills bus linked to STC since the route would loose its connection at Ellesmere. Possible the 95C get's rerouted from Ellesmere station to STC.
Last edited: