[Voltz]

I am not so sure that only a few residents are staunchly against LRT. Only a few showed up at the meeting, but usually such meetings give a reasonably accurate representation of the sentiments that prevail in the larger community. If I heard of a group of local LRT proponents as large and equally determined, then the conclusion would be different; but that's not the case.

Then, the majority might be wrong at times; but it is unwise to ignore that majority in a democratic system. After all, they are capable of electing another moron (or even re-electing the same one) to a certain public post, and ruining transit projects even if the latter make sense from the technical standpoint.

One has to be somewhat flexible to get the stuff done; if the residents don't want LRT but the planners don't feel the subway is justified, why not built another transit line instead of Sheppard East LRT? Or, use the money to extend the already planned lines: Eglinton towards the airport, Finch to Yonge, SLRT to Malvern Centre?

I don't believe the meeting was an accurate representation of the viewpoints. There are many bus riders along Sheppard who need the service improvement now and will be left waiting at bus stops for another 20 years while over crowded buses pass by if a bunch of loud mouth sun readers are allowed to bully their way around.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest:

This constant search for the holy grail - when combined with limited resources and the electoral cycle(s) is the perfect trifecta to transit paralysis. Perfection isn't necessary - just make sure whatever one builds doesn't preclude future options. We are way past the point of talking - it's time to deliver real improvements.

AoD

That's largely true; and that's why I never fancied an idea of changing more than one element of Transit City at a time (and was quite disappointed when Ford with his radical views got elected).

However if we have Eglinton, Finch, and SLRT back on the table, I believe that the risk associated with reconsidering Sheppard LRT is minimal. Given the stretched out funding schedule imposed by the province, and the fact that only two out of four lines are scheduled to see actual construction before 2015, we can just promote Finch to the top of funding queue instead of Sheppard. By 2015, Finch will be almost ready, Eglinton in an advanced stage, and we have time to iron out all details for Sheppard before the actual construction starts.

 

[Rainforest]

I don't believe the meeting was an accurate representation of the viewpoints. There are many bus riders along Sheppard who need the service improvement now and will be left waiting at bus stops for another 20 years while over crowded buses pass by if a bunch of loud mouth sun readers are allowed to bully their way around.

But that does not explain why Sheppard East must be selected for LRT ahead of other corridors. Riders on those corridors will be left waiting at bus stops for another 20 years; and they could get LRT if Sheppard East did not. Sheppard East is not the busiest bus route in the city, and LRT there causes more controversy than LRT on other routes would.

 

[Solid Snake]

But that does not explain why Sheppard East must be selected for LRT ahead of other corridors. Riders on those corridors will be left waiting at bus stops for another 20 years; and they could get LRT if Sheppard East did not. Sheppard East is not the busiest bus route in the city, and LRT there causes more controversy than LRT on other routes would.

Agreed, they should have started the Jane or Don Mills LRT instead

 

[nfitz]

Agreed, they should have started the Jane or Don Mills LRT instead

Jane is too complex - huge space issues. Don Mills is complicated by the demand south of Eglinton, which starts getting a bit high, and the terminus at Pape ... really they have to get their DRL eggs in the basket first. Lakeshore West is a bit controversial and doesn't really attract new riders. That only leaves Scarborough-Eglinton, which Metrolinx hadn't ranked in the first part of the Big Move ... so what was left was Sheppard East, Finch West, Eglinton, and the SRT conversion ... all of which were going to go simultaneously based on the original Metrolinx funding. By the time they delayed 2 projects until post 2015, Sheppard East had already started. It's not the massive conspiracy some seem to see ...

 

[Voltz]

But that does not explain why Sheppard East must be selected for LRT ahead of other corridors. Riders on those corridors will be left waiting at bus stops for another 20 years; and they could get LRT if Sheppard East did not. Sheppard East is not the busiest bus route in the city, and LRT there causes more controversy than LRT on other routes would.

Yes Sheppard may not be the highest priority route in terms of ridership, but everyday until LRT is decided to be built on Sheppard is one more day that Ford, Levy and company will continue to continue to push for a subway, and any and all available funding that pops up will be put towards it, leaving no room for any other projects in the rest of the city.

It is unfortunately not a choice between LRT on Sheppard or Don Mills.

 

[andrewpmk]

Don Mills needs to be a subway. It will act as a downtown relief line for the north end of the Yonge line. Subway is urgently needed as far as Finch.

 

[Dan416]

Yes Sheppard may not be the highest priority route in terms of ridership, but everyday until LRT is decided to be built on Sheppard is one more day that Ford, Levy and company will continue to continue to push for a subway, and any and all available funding that pops up will be put towards it, leaving no room for any other projects in the rest of the city.

It is unfortunately not a choice between LRT on Sheppard or Don Mills.

Which is why we have to push for a subway on Sheppard now since there's elements pushing hard to build an LRT there now.

The LRTistas keep trying to sneak this LRT on Sheppard in, despite the fact that a subway was already started here.

If LRT was so important to them, why didn't they push LRT on routes that it actually made sense, instead of circumcising the Sheppard subway.

 

[nfitz]

Which is why we have to push for a subway on Sheppard now since there's elements pushing hard to build an LRT there now.

Why would you want to build a subway, when there's no where near the demand east of Victoria Park to support a subway?

Your suggesting we should build a subway simply to stop LRT being built? Why do you want to waste my tax dollars? Why do you want to deny those who live on Sheppard east of Kennedy improved transit? Why do you want to deny those on Finch West improved transit?

 

[Rainforest]

Yes Sheppard may not be the highest priority route in terms of ridership, but everyday until LRT is decided to be built on Sheppard is one more day that Ford, Levy and company will continue to continue to push for a subway, and any and all available funding that pops up will be put towards it, leaving no room for any other projects in the rest of the city.

It is unfortunately not a choice between LRT on Sheppard or Don Mills.

Blocking Ford and Levy is not a good rationale for building LRT; and besides that strategy is risky. Given the short election cycle, we can see a situation where a significant amount of money is spent on Sheppard LRT by the end of 2014, but it is not at a point of no return yet. And then if Ford's allies win the majority of Councillor seats, SELRT might get cancelled again, with significant losses.

You might think that Ford messed up his first term and has no shot at the second; but really it is his transit file that is messed up; his other initiatives are controversial but not necessarily unpopular with the majority of voters. Even if Ford himself loses the next mayoral race, he might play the transit controversy in such a way that every Councillor elected in Scarborough will have to declare his / her support of subways and opposition to LRT in order to get elected.

A more disturbance-proof strategy is to avoid placing all bets in one basket. For example, confirm LRTs on Eglinton, Finch, SRT extension, but accept a short extension of Sheppard subway (whether it will be east only, or a combo of east and west). Then even if the landscape at the Council changes unfavorably for LRT after the next elections, they will have a hard time cancelling anything. Cancelling Finch would alienate north-west; Eglnton will be protected by the province and will have advanced too far; and SLRT extension is fully grade-separate.

 

[Rainforest]

Jane is too complex - huge space issues. Don Mills is complicated by the demand south of Eglinton, which starts getting a bit high, and the terminus at Pape ... really they have to get their DRL eggs in the basket first. Lakeshore West is a bit controversial and doesn't really attract new riders. That only leaves Scarborough-Eglinton, which Metrolinx hadn't ranked in the first part of the Big Move ... so what was left was Sheppard East, Finch West, Eglinton, and the SRT conversion ... all of which were going to go simultaneously based on the original Metrolinx funding. By the time they delayed 2 projects until post 2015, Sheppard East had already started. It's not the massive conspiracy some seem to see ...

I agree that there was no conspiracy in the beginning; Sheppard LRT was planned in good faith when both its costs and limitations were not clearly understood, and the community attitude was unknown.

However, I doubt that continuing the push for that project now is a good idea; after the cost shot up by the factor of 2 (the original estimate was $560 million), and after it became the most controversial project in the bunch.

Speaking of other options, I'd think that "Scarborough-Malvern" LRT (that really does not have to have anything to do with Malvern, but should run along Eglinton and Kingstoin Road and serve UTSC from the south) would be a reasonable choice; and moreover, it could act as a relief line during the SRT shutdown. Too bad that option was ignored 2 years ago or so. I realize that Jane and Don Mills LRT projects have issues on their own.

 

[Dan416]

Why would you want to build a subway, when there's no where near the demand east of Victoria Park to support a subway?

Your suggesting we should build a subway simply to stop LRT being built? Why do you want to waste my tax dollars? Why do you want to deny those who live on Sheppard east of Kennedy improved transit? Why do you want to deny those on Finch West improved transit?

What does Finch West have to do with this? I support a Finch LRT, both east and west. I beg you not to put words in my mouth, kind ser.

 

[Voltz]

Blocking Ford and Levy is not a good rationale for building LRT; and besides that strategy is risky. Given the short election cycle, we can see a situation where a significant amount of money is spent on Sheppard LRT by the end of 2014, but it is not at a point of no return yet. And then if Ford's allies win the majority of Councillor seats, SELRT might get cancelled again, with significant losses.

You might think that Ford messed up his first term and has no shot at the second; but really it is his transit file that is messed up; his other initiatives are controversial but not necessarily unpopular with the majority of voters. Even if Ford himself loses the next mayoral race, he might play the transit controversy in such a way that every Councillor elected in Scarborough will have to declare his / her support of subways and opposition to LRT in order to get elected.

A more disturbance-proof strategy is to avoid placing all bets in one basket. For example, confirm LRTs on Eglinton, Finch, SRT extension, but accept a short extension of Sheppard subway (whether it will be east only, or a combo of east and west). Then even if the landscape at the Council changes unfavorably for LRT after the next elections, they will have a hard time cancelling anything. Cancelling Finch would alienate north-west; Eglnton will be protected by the province and will have advanced too far; and SLRT extension is fully grade-separate.

I am fairly certain that the Sheppard LRT would be past the point of no return by the next election if approved now, and since the subway would no longer be an option Ford would not be able to push for it. If they do decide to extend the subway to VP then of course he will be pushing for more of it in the next election and the one after that (leaving no attention or funding for anything else). All he will be pushing for will be an Sheppard subway and we will be lucky if it manages to get to Kennedy or Downsview within 20 years (while getting no other transit improvements). Instead we could build the LRT now and then get onto other needed projects.

I understand that there is the chance of too much LRT leading to a backlash, however I don't see the opposition being as vocal as it is now by the next election, it is more or less fuelled by the media and they don't have much of an attention span.

 

[nfitz]

Blocking Ford and Levy is not a good rationale for building LRT; and besides that strategy is risky. Given the short election cycle, we can see a situation where a significant amount of money is spent on Sheppard LRT by the end of 2014, but it is not at a point of no return yet. And then if Ford's allies win the majority of Councillor seats, SELRT might get cancelled again, with significant losses.

So we shouldn't build a project that should take 3.5 years, because we might have an election in 2.5 years that would put an end to it?

Well I guess those 7-year subway projects are off the table then!

 

[nfitz]

What does Finch West have to do with this? I support a Finch LRT, both east and west. I beg you not to put words in my mouth, kind ser.

How is Finch West going to get built, if you build subway on Sheppard through Scarborough? Where do you get the money?