[kEiThZ]

And this is what bothers me the most!
Even if Ford get's his "plan", which is the MOU -- they're still getting an LRT -- it's just underground! Same trains, same frequencies. I'm actually scared that the people of Scarborough feel that they're going to get an extensive system with the current subway trains in their borough. (I'm not trying to sound mean, or like a jerk -- it's just that we know the "underground plan" is LRT).
Eglinton is a go regardless of the outcome and if it's going to cost $8.2 billion just to put it underground (not to mention it's interlining with the current SRT layout) -- where is the Sheppard money going to come from and why hasn't anyone answered that or believe that it's going to either take a compromise or new funding sources to get it done?

This is where I don't get Ford. And I daresay that most of Scarborough actually does not care whether Eglinton is at or below grade. What people are upset about is the Sheppard subway. Why? Because it looks exactly the SRT if you're a Scarborough resident. Kennedy and Warden stations aside, it seems like successive governments always seem to run out of funds to build anything decent, as soon as they hit the Scarborough border. Then we get that ratty SRT. How do you expect people not to be upset? Queen's park has no issues forcing (essentially) the TTC to send the subway to the 905, but once again, Scarborough gets told that it has to to settle for slower transit and more transfers.

And that's not being pedantic. Consider a York U student from Malvern. To get to school, that person buses up to Finch, across and then takes another bus at Finch station. Once the LRT comes, is that student expected to go south to Sheppard, transfer at Don Mills, transfer at Yonge and transfer again at Finch. After all that, how much time will that billion dollar LRT have saved them?

This will probably get me in trouble here but, yes you can look to the Spadina-Vaughan extension -- but at the very least -- Vaughan is paying 1/3rd of the extension, +/- $352 million dollars worth, which would cover Vaughan's two stations.

And this is what is unbelievable in Toronto. A city of 2.6 million residents isn't willing to pony up a cent to expand its own transit network. Instead it's telling a quarter of its population that they should settle for less. Meanwhile, those supposed car loving 905ers are willing to pitch in for two subway stops.

 

[CanadianNational]

It has to be frustrating for Scarborough residents to see subways get to the former border around Victoria Park then wither away.

-However, I don't see any definite move from Scarborough councillors or citizens' groups to apply for the massive rezoning required to drastically reshape the area around the Don Mills Station - Scarborough Town Centre - Kennedy Station triangle up to a full urban core density. I don't hear them advocating for the elimination of single family homes on lots in this area, nor abolition of surface parking lots, nor pushing for sustainable and automobile-less growth.
-I don't hear support from them for a city-wide subway tax, or parking levies, or lasting ongoing form of governmental fees.
-I don't hear support from them for a DRL, as well, nor the waterfront lines, nor the transit city DRL that would help Malvern. Their push is only for their own area.
-I don't hear them gladly offering to pay part of the price for the extension.
-I don't hear them offering to pay for the ongoing operating deficit of the lines for their area themselves, since an operating deficit is more or less guaranteed.
-I don't hear support of a zone system for payment.

These are just a few airy points of possibility and concern. Some are more valid than others. But if Scarborough wants to get it's subway, it has to step up to the plate and make real, thorough and permanent changes to it's current form. They do not want to seem to do that. Admittedly - where would the money come from to radically redesign vast tracts of established property into Parisian Plus densities? Even if such a large area was zoned with staggering new height and density freedoms, and incentives dropped from the sky like loonies from heaven, it would take years to get the required densities up, going and inhabited.

London was the first city to ever have a subway, a short line that opened in 1863. Paris started planning for one 1854, but got theirs in 1900. New York had it's first subway in 1904.
Toronto got it's first short line in 1954 - nearly a century after London, and half a century after Paris and New York. I can imagine we were feeling a rather like a backwater, ourselves.

Actually, at the start, Toronto got on rather well with Scarborough regarding transit: who can forget the magnificent radial Toronto and Scarboro Electric Railway, established in August 1892? This is when Toronto's population was about 181,000 and Scarborough had about "twelve dwellings" (wiki).
Scarborough doesn't seem to realize that downtown was all of the city there was, long bought, established and paid for for one hundred and twenty years (1834-1954) before we got a subway.
At the creation of Metro in 1953, the city then had one million people. They were spread over 240 square miles, making the density of Toronto 4167 people per square mile. I can't seem to find stats on Scarborough's population at that time, but presumably, it wasn't much like downtown.

Right now, Scarborough covers about 315 square miles, and has, roughly, a population of 602,575. That's about 1,913 people per square mile. So, that's under half the density Toronto had when it got it's first line.
Guelph has roughly 121, 668 currently riding around on buses, and Hamilton has 714,900, looking for their first LRT. Scarborough seems to be closer to these areas in makeup than to Metro's core.

I think the good folks out in Scarborough do have an emotional point when they see the subway being extended to the fields of Vaughan, but not to their own frustrated former borough. I completely understand why the subway is off to York - I think it's great! - but Vaughan?
That said, it does rather pull the mat out from under that tired old argument about 'downtown eeleetes' building for themselves.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Keithz:

And this is what is unbelievable in Toronto. A city of 2.6 million residents isn't willing to pony up a cent to expand its own transit network. Instead it's telling a quarter of its population that they should settle for less. Meanwhile, those supposed car loving 905ers are willing to pitch in for two subway stops.

Actually, what's more unbelievable (or telling) is that said quarter of the population - who are the chief beneficiary of the project - isn't all that hot about having their taxes raised to facilitate the expansion they claim to want. What message does that send to the rest of the city? One had to walk the talk to have credibility.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

Keithz:

Actually, what's more unbelievable (or telling) is that said quarter of the population - who are the chief beneficiary of the project - isn't all that hot about having their taxes raised to facilitate the expansion they claim to want.

I'm curious where this view comes from. Personally, I'd pay more. And I know lots of people who would pay more. I'm curious if people are assuming that just because Scarborough voted for Ford, that they automatically don't want higher taxes to pay for transit expansion. Or is it just because you aren't seeing tons of people carrying placards that say, "Tax me now! I want subways." that you are assuming that people aren't willing to pay more?

But on the tax front, I fail to see why Scarborough should be singled out for fees. Was North York singled out when Sheppard was built? Is Vaughan being singled out to pay user fees? I seriously doubt that Scarborough residents would have any issues with users fees more or less than residents in any other part of Toronto.

 

[kEiThZ]

It has to be frustrating for Scarborough residents to see subways get to the former border around Victoria Park then wither away.

-However, I don't see any definite move from Scarborough councillors or citizens' groups to apply for the massive rezoning required to drastically reshape the area around the Don Mills Station - Scarborough Town Centre - Kennedy Station triangle up to a full urban core density. I don't hear them advocating for the elimination of single family homes on lots in this area, nor abolition of surface parking lots, nor pushing for sustainable and automobile-less growth.
-I don't hear support from them for a city-wide subway tax, or parking levies, or lasting ongoing form of governmental fees.
-I don't hear support from them for a DRL, as well, nor the waterfront lines, nor the transit city DRL that would help Malvern. Their push is only for their own area.
-I don't hear them gladly offering to pay part of the price for the extension.
-I don't hear them offering to pay for the ongoing operating deficit of the lines for their area themselves, since an operating deficit is more or less guaranteed.
-I don't hear support of a zone system for payment.

Honestly, I get sick of hearing stuff like this. Why? Because it's neither relevant of intelligible to the average voter. You really expect the average resident to start discussing zoning, densities, the urban form or the best revenue strategies? If that's the case, why only hold up Scarborough residents to such a standard? How about no DRL until downtowners start campaigning for zoned fares, user fees, more parking levees, etc.? Let's hold off on extending Yonge until Vaughan residents start campaigning for tax-increment financing.

Policy is the job of politicians. They should be the ones to make a plan and present it. Unfortunately, Scarborough's own councillors have been morons. Just look at mine. The wonderful Raymond Cho. Pre-election, he ran around the riding tacitly endorsing Smitherman, and then Ford when it looked like he would win. He supported the cancellation of Transit City on some insane belief that Sheppard would be extended till the zoo (I'm not even making this up). And now he's riding the revolt. But voters being who they are, don't blame him for their transit woes. They don't really no better. They blame the mayor (whoever he happens to be).

You can't expect voters to be transit fans. You go to them with a plan. And you get their opinions. You take the reasonable ones. Discard the rest. Even that does not happen now. I've been to the consultations on the SELRT and the old SRT extension. Presented as a fait accompli. And if you don't like it or hold negative opinions, the staff treat you like an ignorant plebe. And while that's going on, the city-wide discussion that covers much of the issues you talk about is not happening. Why aren't zoned fares being discussed? Why is this only relevant to Scarborough? Don't zoned fares impact Etobicoke and North York residents too? Why is there no talk at all about tolling highways? Yes, the mayor is a thick moron with contradictory positions. But why are all the leftist councillors not even opening this up for debate? Why can't they talk about cost in real terms? (ie. a subway will cost you this much in property taxes every year or we'll have to bring back the plate tax). Instead, all you see on here, comment pages, and implied comments from councillors is the constant bashing of or talking down to Scarborough residents. "They are car addicted morons." "They are cheap losers who won't pay more." "Useless suburbanites". Blah, blah. It all reminds me of the scarey Scarberia days. Frankly, I'm sick of it.

And the province isn't blameless either. It designated SCC as an urban growth centre. And condos are sprouting up there. Would anybody have thought of 30 storey condos are normal in Scarborough 10 years ago? But it's densifying. The province recognizes it. Designates it so. Then decides they aren't going to put the transport infrastructure in place to support that growth (trading the SRT for the LRT isn't really any big leap).

 

[JoeParez]

Why is this only relevant to Scarborough?

I know you were referring to zone fares here but to put it in a different context, when Mayor Ford and his brother started championing Scarborough for subways ("Scarborough deserves subways" & "You can't win without Scarborough") -- suddenly everything became about Scarborough.

 

[Paleo]

Honestly, I get sick of hearing stuff like this. Why? Because it's neither relevant of intelligible to the average voter. You really expect the average resident to start discussing zoning, densities, the urban form or the best revenue strategies? If that's the case, why only hold up Scarborough residents to such a standard? How about no DRL until downtowners start campaigning for zoned fares, user fees, more parking levees, etc.? Let's hold off on extending Yonge until Vaughan residents start campaigning for tax-increment financing.

Or as someone pointed out, it's holding them to the same standard not a different and higher one. It's hardly "unfair" to ask for conditions that are bit better than half of what existed before we built the first lines in the middle of the city.

If you're going to argue in favour of having looser standards for Scarborough, why are you asking for special treatment? It's far more expensive to build this stuff today on an inflation adjusted basis so you had better justify the gold plated service.

 

[gweed123]

I'm curious where this view comes from. Personally, I'd pay more. And I know lots of people who would pay more. I'm curious if people are assuming that just because Scarborough voted for Ford, that they automatically don't want higher taxes to pay for transit expansion. Or is it just because you aren't seeing tons of people carrying placards that say, "Tax me now! I want subways." that you are assuming that people aren't willing to pay more?

But on the tax front, I fail to see why Scarborough should be singled out for fees. Was North York singled out when Sheppard was built? Is Vaughan being singled out to pay user fees? I seriously doubt that Scarborough residents would have any issues with users fees more or less than residents in any other part of Toronto.

I raised this is in another thread earlier, but I think it's worth raising again, because it's very relevant to the discussion. I have slightly modified it though.

What I think should be done is the City should have 2 referendums:

1) One in Scarborough that is a 20% property tax hike in order to pay for the difference between the SLERT & the Sheppard Subway, and the SLRT & a Bloor-Danforth extension to STC. If Scarborough wants to pay to 'supersize' their transit, why not?

2) A City-wide initiative for a 5% tax hike to pay for transit expansion beyond what TC proposes (longer Finch West, longer Eglinton West, and the upgrades in Scarborough).

OR 3) A City-wide initiative for a 2% addition to the HST in Toronto to go exclusively to transit expansion in Toronto.

Or all 3 if people are really bold.

If the citizens are willing to pay for better transit through property tax increases, why not go for it? It would be one of the first times citizens would actually be voting FOR a tax hike. If it passes, get building. If it fails, nobody can say the citizen's weren't given the option.

 

[kEiThZ]

Or as someone pointed out, it's holding them to the same standard not a different and higher one. It's hardly "unfair" to ask for conditions that are bit better than half of what existed before we built the first lines in the middle of the

Would this be the same standards that created the Sheppard subway in the first place or the one that got two stops on the TYSSE to a cornfield in Vaughan?

 

[kEiThZ]

I raised this is in another thread earlier, but I think it's worth raising again, because it's very relevant to the discussion. I have slightly modified it though.

What I think should be done is the City should have 2 referendums:

1) One in Scarborough that is a 20% property tax hike in order to pay for the difference between the SLERT & the Sheppard Subway, and the SLRT & a Bloor-Danforth extension to STC. If Scarborough wants to pay to 'supersize' their transit, why not?

If we are going to start taxing jurisdictions differently, than go whole hog. Why single out Scarborough? How about leaving the entire suburban tax base out of funding the whopper that will be the DRL? Let the South of Bloor crowd pay for it themselves. It's only for downtown residents after all right? I hope you see my point. Infrastructure should exist to make the entire city accessible for all residents. You should be able to get from Scarborough to Etobicoke and from the core to York U in a reasonable amount of time. And arguments like these are utterly unfair when there was no extra tax imposed on North Yorkers who benefited from the current Sheppard subway. Do this and there will be no further concrete proof required that Scarborough residents are second class.

2) A City-wide initiative for a 5% tax hike to pay for transit expansion beyond what TC proposes (longer Finch West, longer Eglinton West, and the upgrades in Scarborough).

OR 3) A City-wide initiative for a 2% addition to the HST in Toronto to go exclusively to transit expansion in Toronto.

Or all 3 if people are really bold.

If the citizens are willing to pay for better transit through property tax increases, why not go for it? It would be one of the first times citizens would actually be voting FOR a tax hike. If it passes, get building. If it fails, nobody can say the citizen's weren't given the option.

I would support any of these. The funds wouldn't just pay for a subway extension on Sheppard (and personally, I think it should go to Agincourt in the east and Downsview in the West for now...hold off on STC). They could also pay for a start on the DRL or the extension of Eglinton to the airport.

And I would go one step further. Impose some form of road tolls or congestion charge. Personally, I would toll the 401 Express. That's a 'fair' toll in my opinion. It creates options. You're paying for speed. You can pay and go express. Or you can go cheap and sit in gridlock. Or you can save the hassle and the cost and take transit.

 

[kEiThZ]

I know you were referring to zone fares here but to put it in a different context, when Mayor Ford and his brother started championing Scarborough for subways ("Scarborough deserves subways" & "You can't win without Scarborough") -- suddenly everything became about Scarborough.

Uggh. So whatever the Ford brothers say on an issue defines it?

Talk like this is starting to feel like some form of politicized class warfare. 'Those poor folk in Scarborough voted for Rob Ford. So now we're going to teach them a lesson.'

 

[gweed123]

If we are going to start taxing jurisdictions differently, than go whole hog. Why single out Scarborough? How about leaving the entire suburban tax base out of funding the whopper that will be the DRL? Let the South of Bloor crowd pay for it themselves. It's only for downtown residents after all right? I hope you see my point. Infrastructure should exist to make the entire city accessible for all residents. You should be able to get from Scarborough to Etobicoke and from the core to York U in a reasonable amount of time. And arguments like these are utterly unfair when there was no extra tax imposed on North Yorkers who benefited from the current Sheppard subway. Do this and there will be no further concrete proof required that Scarborough residents are second class.

Because right now downtown isn't throwing a shit-fit wanting the DRL. Scarborough is getting a base level of transit. If they want the gold standard, I think it's fair that they should pay for the upgrade.

When it comes time to build the DRL, I'm sure the downtowners wouldn't object to a localized tax increase to help pay for it.

I would support any of these. The funds wouldn't just pay for a subway extension on Sheppard (and personally, I think it should go to Agincourt in the east and Downsview in the West for now...hold off on STC). They could also pay for a start on the DRL or the extension of Eglinton to the airport.

And I would go one step further. Impose some form of road tolls or congestion charge. Personally, I would toll the 401 Express. That's a 'fair' toll in my opinion. It creates options. You're paying for speed. You can pay and go express. Or you can go cheap and sit in gridlock. Or you can save the hassle and the cost and take transit.

I know that the tax increase wouldn't pay for all of it (it would need to be about a 50% tax increase to pay for all of it).

And I agree that tolling the 401 Express is a good idea, but that would be a Provincial decision, not a municipal one, since it's Provincially owned. I suppose the City can include that on the referendum ballot, and if it passes make a motion to the Province to implement tolls on it with revenue going to transit expansion. But the Province would have the final say on it. The tax increases on the other hand would be completely in municipal hands.

PS: Does anyone have the stats on daily usage of the 401 Express lanes? I'm curious how many people use it, and as a result how much money tolling it would generate. Make it something reasonable like 10¢/km off-peak, 20¢/km during peak.

 

[kEiThZ]

Because right now downtown isn't throwing a shit-fit wanting the DRL.

That's cause the DRL isn't on the table. But lots of downtowners I know are aware of it and they certainly want it.

Scarborough is getting a base level of transit. If they want the gold standard, I think it's fair that they should pay for the upgrade.

If that's the case, then it's highly unfair to start with just targetting Scarborough. How about applying 20% higher property taxes to any business or residence within 200m of a subway line? Again. Why the different standard for Scarborough? Tell me what was there on Sheppard before they built the Sheppard subway. Do you remember what was there at Downsview before they extend that the Spadina line. What was there at VCC when they announced the TYSSE? So how come all of them get the gold plated treatment and don't have to pay for it?

When it comes time to build the DRL, I'm sure the downtowners wouldn't object to a localized tax increase to help pay for it.

Oh but they will. And you know exactly what the argument will be: "I walk/bike/ride the YUS loop to work. I don't take the DRL. That's for the Scarborough commuters. Why should I pay more taxes?"

I know that the tax increase wouldn't pay for all of it (it would need to be about a 50% tax increase to pay for all of it).

And I agree that tolling the 401 Express is a good idea, but that would be a Provincial decision, not a municipal one, since it's Provincially owned. I suppose the City can include that on the referendum ballot, and if it passes make a motion to the Province to implement tolls on it with revenue going to transit expansion. But the Province would have the final say on it. The tax increases on the other hand would be completely in municipal hands.

PS: Does anyone have the stats on daily usage of the 401 Express lanes? I'm curious how many people use it, and as a result how much money tolling it would generate. Make it something reasonable like 10¢/km off-peak, 20¢/km during peak.

You know what? If Rob Ford had an ounce of intelligence. This is exactly what he would do. He should ask the province to toll the 401 and if they refuse, threaten to toll the DVP (not the 404) and the Gardiner right at points where the 905 commuters get in. That or hand over money for the subway. Watch how quickly McGuinty would cave when threatened with angry 905 commuters. Unfortunately, he's not that bright and his balls aren't that big.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If we are going to start taxing jurisdictions differently, than go whole hog. Why single out Scarborough? How about leaving the entire suburban tax base out of funding the whopper that will be the DRL? Let the South of Bloor crowd pay for it themselves. It's only for downtown residents after all right? I hope you see my point. Infrastructure should exist to make the entire city accessible for all residents. You should be able to get from Scarborough to Etobicoke and from the core to York U in a reasonable amount of time. And arguments like these are utterly unfair when there was no extra tax imposed on North Yorkers who benefited from the current Sheppard subway. Do this and there will be no further concrete proof required that Scarborough residents are second class.

Oh but they will. And you know exactly what the argument will be: "I walk/bike/ride the YUS loop to work. I don't take the DRL. That's for the Scarborough commuters. Why should I pay more taxes?"

Sorry, you are working it from both sides here and presenting your case as the only win. The south of Bloor crowd tend not to use the Yonge line en masse during rush hour because of how saturated the line gets. I would dare argue that a DRL would benefit suburban users just as much. SRT/BD users aren't by and large using the line to get across the city - and they are the ones getting crammed on the trains like everyone else. And unlike Sheppard, the DRL already has the numbers to support a subway line.

I'm curious if people are assuming that just because Scarborough voted for Ford, that they automatically don't want higher taxes to pay for transit expansion. Or is it just because you aren't seeing tons of people carrying placards that say, "Tax me now! I want subways." that you are assuming that people aren't willing to pay more?

BTW, remind me what you said about "assumptions" that others made about Scarborough? Have you asked downtowners what they felt about paying extra for DRL?

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

Sorry, but the south of Bloor crowd tend not to use the Yonge line en masse during rush hour because of how saturated the line gets. I would dare argue that a DRL would benefit suburban users just as much. SRT/BD users aren't by and large using the line to get across the city - and they are the ones getting crammed on the trains like everyone else. And unlike Sheppard, the DRL already has the numbers to support a subway line.

AoD

Define "support". It might not actually bring in a lot of new revenue. It's just going to redistribute riders and reduce overcrowding. That's great (and it's why I support the DRL). But you could well end up in a situation where it costs as much to keep going as Sheppard. If it's truly a 'relief line', it's pretty much useless outside of peak.