[AlvinofDiaspar]

Which will then enable extensions along Yonge and another N-S corridor (or perhaps two in the long run), the predominant direction of travel for public transit users? Besides, are you saying a properly designed "relief line" has less potential to hit more key nodes in the city? We have a clearly established need - which is governed by hard limits of the system pushed to saturation, and all that we can talk about is how to raise revenue for extending Sheppard when it doesn't demand heavy rail-level capacity? I think we have a bit of a legitimacy crisis here. And need I remind you, unlike the suburban nodes in the city, the core is the clear growth area in terms of employment and residents - and that trend will continue for the forseeable future? Transit riders constituting that growth won't be just downtowners.

AoD

 

[gweed123]

That's cause the DRL isn't on the table. But lots of downtowners I know are aware of it and they certainly want it.

When it is put on the table, I'm sure a lot of downtown people would support a higher local tax rate to pay for it.

If that's the case, then it's highly unfair to start with just targetting Scarborough. How about applying 20% higher property taxes to any business or residence within 200m of a subway line? Again. Why the different standard for Scarborough? Tell me what was there on Sheppard before they built the Sheppard subway. Do you remember what was there at Downsview before they extend that the Spadina line. What was there at VCC when they announced the TYSSE? So how come all of them get the gold plated treatment and don't have to pay for it?

Well for starters, Vaughan Centre isn't in Toronto, so Vaughan is putting all of their transit eggs in one basket. They want to build density all in 1 spot. Toronto can't do that. And Scarborough should be targeted because they're the ones who want subways. The money isn't there. If they want the gold standard, pay for it.

Oh but they will. And you know exactly what the argument will be: "I walk/bike/ride the YUS loop to work. I don't take the DRL. That's for the Scarborough commuters. Why should I pay more taxes?"

I don't think that will be the case. Downtowners are by their nature more transit intensive, and any transit expansion would be welcome with open arms.

You know what? If Rob Ford had an ounce of intelligence. This is exactly what he would do. He should ask the province to toll the 401 and if they refuse, threaten to toll the DVP (not the 404) and the Gardiner right at points where the 905 commuters get in. That or hand over money for the subway. Watch how quickly McGuinty would cave when threatened with angry 905 commuters. Unfortunately, he's not that bright and his balls aren't that big.

Maybe Metrolinx will step up and propose that instead, to help fund future projects.

 

[W. K. Lis]

A lot of transit users south of Bloor-Danforth do not go north to use the B-D Subway and Y-U-S Subway because of the overcrowding. They use the streetcars or buses that go downtown. When the B-D Subway originally opened, the cut the number of streetcars on Dundas and King, but had to put them back on because the transit users did not abandon the streetcars that much, even though back then it would have been less crowds on the Subway than nowadays.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

Did all of metro pay for the original Yonge and B-D lines, or was it just Toronto? If just Toronto, then why should Toronto also pay for Sheppard, given that Toronto has already paid for its transit infrastructure?

 

[gweed123]

Did all of metro pay for the original Yonge and B-D lines, or was it just Toronto? If just Toronto, then why should Toronto also pay for Sheppard, given that Toronto has already paid for its transit infrastructure?

Metro wasn't even in existence when the Yonge Subway was built (didn't exist until 1954). The Yonge Subway opened the same year as Metro was created. Bloor-Danforth was likely funded by Metro, as was the Spadina extension. Sheppard was for sure.

Given the fact that more subway has been built outside of the Old City of Toronto than inside it since the creation of Metro, you do have a point.

 

[Palma]

It has to be frustrating for Scarborough residents to see subways get to the former border around Victoria Park then wither away.

I do not know how Scarborough voted in the 2007 provincial election and I do not know when the Liberals announced funding for Spadina extension to Vaughan or if it was around the time of the 2007 election, but Scarborough should have showed their anger by voting for the PC's in the 2007 election. Actually all of Toronto should have done that. I do not know why the councillors on city council did not put up a big fight

 

[BurlOak]

Because right now downtown isn't throwing a shit-fit wanting the DRL. Scarborough is getting a base level of transit. If they want the gold standard, I think it's fair that they should pay for the upgrade.

When it comes time to build the DRL, I'm sure the downtowners wouldn't object to a localized tax increase to help pay for it.

I know that the tax increase wouldn't pay for all of it (it would need to be about a 50% tax increase to pay for all of it).

And I agree that tolling the 401 Express is a good idea, but that would be a Provincial decision, not a municipal one, since it's Provincially owned. I suppose the City can include that on the referendum ballot, and if it passes make a motion to the Province to implement tolls on it with revenue going to transit expansion. But the Province would have the final say on it. The tax increases on the other hand would be completely in municipal hands.

PS: Does anyone have the stats on daily usage of the 401 Express lanes? I'm curious how many people use it, and as a result how much money tolling it would generate. Make it something reasonable like 10¢/km off-peak, 20¢/km during peak.

According to the MTO website (http://www.raqsb.mto.gov.on.ca/techpubs/TrafficVolumes.nsf/tvweb?OpenForm&Seq=1), there are about 350,000 vehicles per day (depending exactly where you look) using the 401 - that is both directions. With an even distribution, this would be about 175,000 vehicles in the express. With no proof, I would assume the average trip is 10km - So this would work out to about $250k per day or $100M per year.

 

[Palma]

Does not sound like a lot of money. It will take 1 year for 1B. Why is it other stats i have seen shows more money coming in with tolls? But that with toll on DVP and/or the Gardiner

 

[kEiThZ]

Which will then enable extensions along Yonge and another N-S corridor ....

AoD

Exactly my point. This all about building a network. Not some ridiculous allocation of transit by region. Naturally, Scarborough riders will use anything on Sheppard East more since the majority of Sheppard East is in Scarborough. But does that mean nobody else from the city will use the line? If that's the argument, how many riders from Scarborough use the Spadina line? Why should Scarborough ratepayers help pay for the TYSSE? It's not going to benefit any of them without a Sheppard West extension.

 

[kEiThZ]

I do not know how Scarborough voted in the 2007 provincial election and I do not know when the Liberals announced funding for Spadina extension to Vaughan or if it was around the time of the 2007 election, but Scarborough should have showed their anger by voting for the PC's in the 2007 election. Actually all of Toronto should have done that. I do not know why the councillors on city council did not put up a big fight

I honestly would not be surprised if there are more provincial and federal Conservative victories in the next election based on promise on build a subway. Just watch. People are peeved. And they aren't likely to be placated if and when the LRT is built and they find out that it doesn't really save them all that much time. Not to mention that an LRT on Sheppard does nothing for riders on Finch, or Lawrence or Steeles, etc.

 

[Palma]

It better be for subways in Toronto and not for past the Steeles border - this time in RichmondHill

 

[gweed123]

According to the MTO website (http://www.raqsb.mto.gov.on.ca/techpubs/TrafficVolumes.nsf/tvweb?OpenForm&Seq=1), there are about 350,000 vehicles per day (depending exactly where you look) using the 401 - that is both directions. With an even distribution, this would be about 175,000 vehicles in the express. With no proof, I would assume the average trip is 10km - So this would work out to about $250k per day or $100M per year.

Thanks for that! However, with peak hour tolls being both more expensive and with the highway being full, it may bring it more than that.

Before I get any further, some distances: Port Union to the DVP = ~16km. DVP to Allen = ~10 km. Allen to 400 = ~5.5 km. 400 to 427 = ~7km. 427 to 403/410 = ~6.5km. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that the average trip distance is at least 15km, as the central stretch from the DVP to the 400 is the busiest.

During peak hour, we can assume that the lanes are all taking the maximum 1,800 vph. The express lanes are 3 lanes through most of Toronto, so that's 10,800 vehicles per hour in the express. Assuming a peak period from 7-9 and from 4-6, that's a total of 43,200 vehicles getting tolled at the higher rate. Again, assuming a trip length of about 15 km, at 20¢/km, that's $129,600 per day just from the peak period tolls.

Based on your numbers, that leaves 131,800 vehicles for the other 20 hours in the day, tolled at 10¢/km. Again, average trip of 15km (maybe even longer since more people drive end-to-end off peak). That means $197,700 for the rest of the day.

Now since peak period charges only apply on work days, of which there are around 250 in a year, that gives us $32.4 million per year. That means $49.25 million for off peak workdays, and since there are 115 non-workdays per year, a total of $30.18 million for weekends and holidays.

That means a grand total of about $111.83 million per year in toll revenue from the Express Lanes on the 401. Round down to $110 million for simplicity sake and rounding errors.

The DVP and Gardiner see similar traffic levels over the course of a 24 hour period, and are usually at capacity during rush hour as well. The DVP between Eglinton and Lawrence is just over 175,000 daily as well. Given that the DVP is 15km long, the numbers should be pretty close to what the 401 is. Somewhere around $110 million.

The Gardiner is 18km long, but the last 3km aren't very heavily used, so we can assume an average trip of about 15km there too. The Gardiner between Strachan and Bathurst is 154,726 on the average weekday, but is significantly higher between the 427 and the Humber, because of the express/collector setup there. That would average out to about the same as the other two.

So it can be reasonably assumed that the tolling of the 401 Express, DVP, and Gardiner using the same tolling scheme would net somewhere between $300 and $330 million per year. In other words, enough to build 1km of subway per year just from that.

 

[Palma]

that sounds reasonable. But we know it will be awhile before those tolls are implemented if ever - certainly not with Ford as mayor

 

[Dan416]

Always nice to have kEiThZ back to inject some sense into a debate. You've been missed!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Keithz:

Exactly my point. This all about building a network. Not some ridiculous allocation of transit by region. Naturally, Scarborough riders will use anything on Sheppard East more since the majority of Sheppard East is in Scarborough. But does that mean nobody else from the city will use the line? If that's the argument, how many riders from Scarborough use the Spadina line? Why should Scarborough ratepayers help pay for the TYSSE? It's not going to benefit any of them without a Sheppard West extension.

Actually, it's exactly the opposite of your point. You are advocating that city-wide resources be put into a specific line, with benefits that does not justify the expenditure, at a time when there are clearly bottlenecks within the existing system that requires an extraordinary amount of resources to address. To say "Scarborough got shafted" under this environment is practicing what you are loath to preach - building transit on the basis of political expediency - which just so happens to be in a way that you benefit from. BTW, considering the somewhat questionable planning motivation and outcomes (real and potential) for both the original Sheppard and Vaughan extension - you are arguing we should build transit using the exact same rationale?

I honestly would not be surprised if there are more provincial and federal Conservative victories in the next election based on promise on build a subway. Just watch. People are peeved. And they aren't likely to be placated if and when the LRT is built and they find out that it doesn't really save them all that much time. Not to mention that an LRT on Sheppard does nothing for riders on Finch, or Lawrence or Steeles, etc.

Well, as they say - fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. And no offense, just how does a subway on Sheppard does anything for riders on Finch, Lawrence or Steeles? Are you suggesting that somehow a subway under the same alignment will somehow do something for them that LRT would utterly fail to do, considering the distance those E-W arterials are from Sheppard?

AoD