rbt
Senior Member
Yup. Expect actual cost to be closer to $250/350M per km by the time everything is accounted for in 2020 (takes a couple years after completion for full cost to appear).
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- Thread starter Ansem
- Start date
Yup. Expect actual cost to be closer to $250/350M per km by the time everything is accounted for in 2020 (takes a couple years after completion for full cost to appear).
nfitz
Superstar
Here's the announcment: http://communiques.gouv.qc.ca/gouvqc/communiques/GPQF/Septembre2009/16/c5936.html
Pretty minor ... they announced $12-million in studies to be completed over a 3-year period. Pre-design and assessment. Could be years before they actually decide to build anything!
Quebec also has a long history of announcing, and promising the same thing over, and over, and over again ... without it ever actually happening!
I wouldn't be surprised if the Spadina extension is open, before they even get a shovel in the ground ... other than perhaps the 1-station extension to Pie-IX/Jean-Talon.
Pretty minor ... they announced $12-million in studies to be completed over a 3-year period. Pre-design and assessment. Could be years before they actually decide to build anything!
Quebec also has a long history of announcing, and promising the same thing over, and over, and over again ... without it ever actually happening!
I wouldn't be surprised if the Spadina extension is open, before they even get a shovel in the ground ... other than perhaps the 1-station extension to Pie-IX/Jean-Talon.
T
Tdot_one
Guest
I wouldn't include the RT extension, imo. What benefits does it? Outside of maintaining a transfer, which would make sense if Scarborough was its own city. However, a significant number in the borough commute to East of Kennedy suggesting that riders are going to be hit with two transfers.
Second, GO cannot even touch the AMT in terms of frequency of service. That explains why the former has much lower daily ridership. We're talking about nearly 800,000 trips per day on the AMT.
Toronto could do a lot better.
Platform 27
Active Member
Er, unless you're adding in the local transit numbers with the regional ones, there's no way in hell the AMT is carrying 800,000 trips per day on its commuter trains and interregional coaches.
Comparing the interregional part of its system to GO's ridership, GO whallops AMT by a factor of three.
The only particularly frequent service the AMT offers is on Deux-Montagnes, and that's still only hourly in the offpeak, or roughly equivalent to GO's Lakeshore lines. The Lakeshore's ridership (25.4 mil p.a.) is more than three times the DM line (7.8 mil p.a.).
Voltz
Senior Member
If that is even true,give it a few years... What GO is planning to do will make anything from Montreal look like a picnic.
Have people forgotten the Metrolinx RTP already?
It's a $55 billion dollar plan and yet people are jealous of plans to study a few subway extensions in Montreal.
kettal
Banned
I'd like to know your source on these numbers? Everything I've seen says GO has about 300% higher ridership than AMT.
nfitz
Superstar
Are you stoned or something? AMT doesn't carry anything close to what GO carries. And their expansion plans are minimal compared to GO 2020.
Ansem
Banned
True. GTA transit plan overkills the Montreal Metropolitan Plans
If you take the Toronto system vs Montreal Metro, we could learn a thing or two form Montreal
1-1 single uninterrupted rapid transit North crosstown linking both North-South subway lines. You didn't see Montreal said: You know what? Let's look more europeen and Put an LRT on Jean-Talon to Anjou. We'll spend a billions and not only commuters will have a transfert point, the speed gain will be 5 or 6 km/h and it will take more time than before. It doesn't make sense but who cares, people will buy it anyway...
2-Making sure that the suburbs pay their fair share for Subway maintenance...every year. 82 cities including Montreal pay for the subway maintenance cost. Their citizens are using the subways so it was fair that those cities contributed as well. Without this don't be surprise if the TTC keeps the attitude like the STM had years ago before this became a reality.
So naturally, when the suburbs and regional transit agency want integrated fare system, how on earth can Montreal say no now? When Laval and Longueuil wants a subways extension, how can you say no? You can't fight it.
3-When planning subways extension, you don't ''subway block each other''
a)You plan it together and submit it as a single request. It's harder to reject a request on behalf of 3 Million people (50% of Quebec) than 1.8 million if it's Montreal alone. When the rivalry City vs suburb is put aside, look what happens.
b)Stupid things like:
TTC: No Richmond Hill without Bloor-Yonge renovation
York: We want the subway and we could care less what happen to those already using the already overcrowding Yonge Line
TTC: If the Richmond Hill subway is build then we'll propose Sheppad west extension.
TTC: Let's use Transit city not as a complement to our network but as an alternative. We have been denied in the past...loser attitude
Simply childish and incoherent
Imagine if Missisauga, Toronto and York included these:
-DRL
-Kennedy to STC
-Downview to STC (Sheppard Line)
-Eglinton
-York extension
-Mississauga
1 Project for the GTA with every mayor being supportive of the other, meaning no back stabbing.
c)Too expensive? So are you saying it's gonna get cheaper in the future? Of course not because we all know they are going to be build in the future anyways when it's gonna cost double of what it is now.
I studied political science and it's all a political game. Unfortunately, we have poor politicians. Do you really think any political party could turn down the whole GTA? 5.5 million people (over 40% of Ontario). How many of them are potential voters?
Does a political party really wants all those mayor going home threathning to say: well, no subways because the PM don't think those who need it matter...
That's what happened in Montreal. Why?
Montreal mayor a good politician? Hell no, he's corrupted and incompetent
Longueuil mayor who can't manage his lunch money if he had too.
Laval mayor is a brilliant politician and is the mastermind behind this. 2 elections ago, the liberals almost lost power because of the ADQ (Quebec conservatives). Laval seats almost went to the ADQ and they barely kept them liberal. The result is that Laval gets pretty much everything it wants.
This time, Laval shared that power with the others for the greater good.
Because remember...the number 1 objective of any political party is to get and keep the power. They'll do anything to get it and stay there.
Like Harper staying in Ottawa thanks to the evil separatist and socialist...
If you take the Toronto system vs Montreal Metro, we could learn a thing or two form Montreal
1-1 single uninterrupted rapid transit North crosstown linking both North-South subway lines. You didn't see Montreal said: You know what? Let's look more europeen and Put an LRT on Jean-Talon to Anjou. We'll spend a billions and not only commuters will have a transfert point, the speed gain will be 5 or 6 km/h and it will take more time than before. It doesn't make sense but who cares, people will buy it anyway...
2-Making sure that the suburbs pay their fair share for Subway maintenance...every year. 82 cities including Montreal pay for the subway maintenance cost. Their citizens are using the subways so it was fair that those cities contributed as well. Without this don't be surprise if the TTC keeps the attitude like the STM had years ago before this became a reality.
So naturally, when the suburbs and regional transit agency want integrated fare system, how on earth can Montreal say no now? When Laval and Longueuil wants a subways extension, how can you say no? You can't fight it.
3-When planning subways extension, you don't ''subway block each other''
a)You plan it together and submit it as a single request. It's harder to reject a request on behalf of 3 Million people (50% of Quebec) than 1.8 million if it's Montreal alone. When the rivalry City vs suburb is put aside, look what happens.
b)Stupid things like:
TTC: No Richmond Hill without Bloor-Yonge renovation
York: We want the subway and we could care less what happen to those already using the already overcrowding Yonge Line
TTC: If the Richmond Hill subway is build then we'll propose Sheppad west extension.
TTC: Let's use Transit city not as a complement to our network but as an alternative. We have been denied in the past...loser attitude
Simply childish and incoherent
Imagine if Missisauga, Toronto and York included these:
-DRL
-Kennedy to STC
-Downview to STC (Sheppard Line)
-Eglinton
-York extension
-Mississauga
1 Project for the GTA with every mayor being supportive of the other, meaning no back stabbing.
c)Too expensive? So are you saying it's gonna get cheaper in the future? Of course not because we all know they are going to be build in the future anyways when it's gonna cost double of what it is now.
I studied political science and it's all a political game. Unfortunately, we have poor politicians. Do you really think any political party could turn down the whole GTA? 5.5 million people (over 40% of Ontario). How many of them are potential voters?
Does a political party really wants all those mayor going home threathning to say: well, no subways because the PM don't think those who need it matter...
That's what happened in Montreal. Why?
Montreal mayor a good politician? Hell no, he's corrupted and incompetent
Longueuil mayor who can't manage his lunch money if he had too.
Laval mayor is a brilliant politician and is the mastermind behind this. 2 elections ago, the liberals almost lost power because of the ADQ (Quebec conservatives). Laval seats almost went to the ADQ and they barely kept them liberal. The result is that Laval gets pretty much everything it wants.
This time, Laval shared that power with the others for the greater good.
Because remember...the number 1 objective of any political party is to get and keep the power. They'll do anything to get it and stay there.
Like Harper staying in Ottawa thanks to the evil separatist and socialist...
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Dan416
Senior Member
I think you have a good point about the GTA speaking together. If the entire GTA paid for the TTC then we'd be a lot better off. More people to spread the costs over, and then we could actually think regionally and not piecemealy (something Metrolinx was supposed to fix, but didn't; they just accepted all municipalities plans as is)
kEiThZ
Superstar
See my earlier thread where I said the TTC should be broken up. I'd like to see the subway network taken over by Metrolinx to allow it to combine GO and subway fares.
Dan416
Senior Member
I don't think the TTC would like that. Take away their most profitable portion? Unacceptable. Acceptable would be the TTC and Metrolinx and MT, BT, YRT, DRT, OT merging.
Fresh Start
Banned
All this talk of Montreal metro/subway expansion reminds me of a fantasy map that I compiled some time ago...
In it I included stops at Fleet/Queen Mary (Hampstead), Kildare/Cavendish and West Broadway/Cote St-Luc; the latter two being major commercial zones. Also notice the NDG infill stop on the Orange line between Villa Maria and Vendome. The Blue line then goes onward past St Pierre to Les Galeries Lachine where the line intercepts a high-speed LRT tram that links to Dorval AMT Stn and PET Airport. I figure that Fairview and Pierrefonds would be best served via AMT service along a new rail corridor which would run adjacent to St Jean Boulevard.
As for the other metro lines, I think it'd be a huge mistake if the Orange line somehow misses Carrefour Laval, the 2nd largest mall in all of Quebec. As such before closing the loop I make sure the key intersections and commercial zones of Chomedey and St Martin are covered (totaling 10 stations within Laval, 7 + the existing 3). I think both the Green and Blue lines need significant eastward expansion, and branching the Blue line after Viau Nord may in fact best satisfy the needs of both Montreal Nord and Anjou/Roi Rene with the one main trunk of subway. The Green line could also extend further into La Salle terminating at the AMT station near its waterfront.
Finally expanding the Yellow line on both ends would alleviate the Green/Orange Lines through the downtown core (with interchange stops exiting right onto Rene Leveque and St Catherine) and bring mass transit to the isolated Vieux Port area. Perhaps after the Ile Des Soeurs stop the line could continue on to the South Shore and create another subway loop, this time with the Yellow line.
Whatever the case, it's just nice to see a world-class Canadian city thinking seriously and proactively about expanding its subway network, and not through and to wastelands of lower-density car-oriented sprawl either, a sentiment that leaves a lot to be desired here.
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
Maybe Smitherman will be more supportive of merging ttc, mt, yrt etc under metrolinx given The portfolio he has
Northern Light
Superstar
No mega-mergers
I'm not actually clear on one massive system being a good idea (fewer systems yes).
By all means, fare integration and better coordination. But remember, the rules of amalgamation are ALWAYS that every class of employees will rise to the highest pay in the merging group. That means a lot more money for no new service, right off the bat.
Further, suburban politicians aren't yet ready to fund the TTC at anything like the level it is today. Bringing the suburbs up to TTC service standards would be prohibitively expensive! Places with 60-min service cycles going to every 20min or better? Spine services at 10min or better? Not a chance in most areas, not for many years. But if they get a lower level of service that Toronto will they pay for that? Somehow I don't think so.
Moreover, the Toronto amalgamation story was not necessarily one of a bad idea, but it was one of too much all at once. Had they just merged the fire dept Metro-wide, and folded East York and York into to the old Toronto as annexations......it would have been cheaper, more stable, less confusing etc.
Then, a full amalgamation, if truly desired could have been done say, 20 years later, (or about 9 years from now)
****
I would suggest the following merger priorities:
1) Merge Oakville, Burlington and Milton Transits into Halton Regional Transit.
2) Merge St, Kitts, Thorold and Niagara F. into Niagara Regional Transit
3) Give poor Hazel a conniption fit; merge Mississauga and Brampton Transit into Peel Region Transit.
That should be plenty to keep folks busy, with manageable merger sizes, creating more integrated service over time.
GO can keep growing, so can the TTC, and with fare integration, we should be all good, but let's leave a super mega-merger to another decade.
I'm not actually clear on one massive system being a good idea (fewer systems yes).
By all means, fare integration and better coordination. But remember, the rules of amalgamation are ALWAYS that every class of employees will rise to the highest pay in the merging group. That means a lot more money for no new service, right off the bat.
Further, suburban politicians aren't yet ready to fund the TTC at anything like the level it is today. Bringing the suburbs up to TTC service standards would be prohibitively expensive! Places with 60-min service cycles going to every 20min or better? Spine services at 10min or better? Not a chance in most areas, not for many years. But if they get a lower level of service that Toronto will they pay for that? Somehow I don't think so.
Moreover, the Toronto amalgamation story was not necessarily one of a bad idea, but it was one of too much all at once. Had they just merged the fire dept Metro-wide, and folded East York and York into to the old Toronto as annexations......it would have been cheaper, more stable, less confusing etc.
Then, a full amalgamation, if truly desired could have been done say, 20 years later, (or about 9 years from now)
****
I would suggest the following merger priorities:
1) Merge Oakville, Burlington and Milton Transits into Halton Regional Transit.
2) Merge St, Kitts, Thorold and Niagara F. into Niagara Regional Transit
3) Give poor Hazel a conniption fit; merge Mississauga and Brampton Transit into Peel Region Transit.
That should be plenty to keep folks busy, with manageable merger sizes, creating more integrated service over time.
GO can keep growing, so can the TTC, and with fare integration, we should be all good, but let's leave a super mega-merger to another decade.
kEiThZ
Superstar
^ Agreed with the above. I only believe that the subway and the GO network should be merged. Let's face it, the subway system has become an inter-regional backbone. It's rightful place is with GO now.