[kEiThZ]

In fact, I suspect Moose’s investor base is actually counting on that....they develop the area around the stations with the urban commercial core, than they add population (customer base for the core) beyond that. The local municipalities probably want that too, so the zoning will encourage that.

They absolutely are. Their plans make zero sense otherwise. Ottawa property is not so expensive that people need to move 50 km to just get anything. So anybody moving that far away is doing so to get land. There will always be those who crave American style suburbs. 3000 sqft on half acre lots with two SUVs in the three car garage.

Now, I am not opposed to somebody moving far away and enjoying their land. But we need to make sure that their decisions are not subsidized and that those who choose to live in the urban core aren't footing the bill. This is why I'd be equally opposed to someone proposing a GO bus type of service with provincial subsidies enabling a wide reaching network. The effect would be exactly the same: massively subsidized sprawl. In this case, to some extent at least it won't be the City of Ottawa subsidizing sprawl for once. But I don't see how this ends without the province incurring major costs on everything from roads to water treatment to sewers. Development charges will never cover all that infrastructure in perpetuity.

The only novel twist being added here is a private entity. But the subsidy element is already there: the public asset that is central to MOOSE's plans.

While Moose is an interesting idea, I would prefer to see Ottawa grow through infill in its central area without gobbling up land outside the city limits. That means suppressing growth in these outer communities, just as the GTA needs to suppress growth outside the greenbelt.

It's bad enough that the LRT is being extended outside the Greenbelt in the East. So now instead of buying at a new development at Trim, people will be buying in Rockland and using the park n ride at Trim. The Western and Southwestern extensions aren't too bad. But the real sprawlicious horror will come in the putative Stage 3 when the LRT is extended right into the heart of Kanata and Barrhaven. The only hope is that the urban area inside the Greenbelt can develop fast enough to offset growth outside. There's some hope with all the condo developments and such. But a real possibility that Ottawa could end up more of a sprawling mess than it is today.

MOOSE would be gasoline on the fire. It's the equivalent of building GO RER in the 70s before most of the 416 had developed. The GTA would have turned out very, very differently.

Some investors will cry foul, but it’s for the greater good.

Putting communities and cities before private financial interests. Imagine that.

Thankfully, Ottawa has actually dodged just such a bullet before. The previous LRT plan was a developer supported idea to let them build "transit oriented" communities in the south. Same idea: transit to McMansions. Thankfully, voters shot that nonsense down. And got a substantially better LRT plan as a result, after the previous mayor cancelled the old LRT plan. I have never felt so satisfied with a vote, as when I voted for Larry O'Brien in 2006.

I am struck at how transit is oriented to commuters.

As you note, this will change with the LRT. Ottawa held onto BRT for far too long. And it became a resource intensive mess, moving 50-70 commuters on individual buses with individual drivers and tons of deadheading along the Transitway. The LRT will free up a lot of resources that will allow them to improve local bus service. Removing a lot of the buses from the downtown core will also make the core a lot more pleasant. I got there in 2006. Left a few years back. And going back next year. I am shocked by how much the city has changed in the last decade. Reminds me of Toronto in the 90s.

Sidenote. In case anybody doesn't believe about Metrolinx/GO being a massive parking provider:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rer/rer_work.aspx - 70 000 spots. For comparison, the Toronto Parking Authority operates 54 000 spots and the TTC operates about 12 000 spots. Give or take.

 

[micheal_can]

Does anyone actually think sprawl will not happen if the Moose is not built?

 

[OCCheetos]

^
No one's really addressed the part of my question which is about the current state of urban sprawl.
People don't seem to like MOOSE because it's going to promote urban sprawl, but are happy to cheer on the city as it proceeds with Stage 2 which currently has a station/park and ride planned for the middle of a field.

There's also this quote from the mayor himself:
“The new proposed alignment will bring thousands of residents closer to rail and have a reduced impact on environmentally sensitive Greenbelt lands. In Riverside South alone, the City is forecasting a residential growth of nearly 15,000 households or approximately 40,000 people over the course of the next ten years.”
Sounds like urban sprawl to me...

So, I'll ask my question again. If this is already going to happen, why not try and get something good out of it?

 

[micheal_can]

^
No one's really addressed the part of my question which is about the current state of urban sprawl.
People don't seem to like MOOSE because it's going to promote urban sprawl, but are happy to cheer on the city as it proceeds with Stage 2 which currently has a station/park and ride planned for the middle of a field.

There's also this quote from the mayor himself:
“The new proposed alignment will bring thousands of residents closer to rail and have a reduced impact on environmentally sensitive Greenbelt lands. In Riverside South alone, the City is forecasting a residential growth of nearly 15,000 households or approximately 40,000 people over the course of the next ten years.”
Sounds like urban sprawl to me...

So, I'll ask my question again. If this is already going to happen, why not try and get something good out of it?

"because the LRT doesn't go by my front door!"

 

[kEiThZ]

No one's really addressed the part of my question which is about the current state of urban sprawl.

I specifically addressed the current plan. I have repeatedly criticized the current LRT plan for extending past the greenbelt. And I made those views known at every public consultation I attended.

However, this is whataboutism. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Stage 2 will enable some sprawl, does not mean the floodgates should the thrown up to full exurban development. And let's be clear, that is exactly what we're talking about. Nobody is going to be moving to Arnprior to live in a semi. If they are moving that far, while their primary employment is in Ottawa, it's for the full exurban lifestyle.

It's terrible for the environment, but I am not to argue against freedom of choice, as long as their lifestyle does not cost Ottawa residents money or services. If we're going to start arguing that Ottawa resident should see worse service on the Trillium Line so that their exurban lifestyle can be accommodated, or if we start seeing higher taxes to support infrastructure expansion to service those communities, that is when I think speaking out against such proposals is warranted.

So, I'll ask my question again. If this is already going to happen, why not try and get something good out of it?

What conclusive evidence is there that Ottawa residents benefit from MOOSE?

 

[OCCheetos]

some sprawl

Do you really consider 15,000 households to be just some sprawl?

 

[Charles]

I don't think most of you understand the opposition to MOOSE that some of us have. It's not that we're anti-rail in the least. This has to do with MOOSE's plan and how they mean to implement it.

Let me use an analogy. The City of Ottawa is planning on building a new Civic Hospital Campus on the old Sir John Carling site. It's planned, approved, will be funded, but awaiting construction. Imagine now that a group of folks come around and tell the City to stop their current plans to build the hospital. Rather, they're going to build the hospital instead and run it privately. They're going to do this at no cost to the taxpayer, and no one is ever going to have to pay a penny to operate the hospital, ever. Additionally, the hospital will be bigger than the current planned one, with more beds, and every room will be a single room, no sharing.

Sounds too good to be true, well it probably is. Would you stop your current plans to build the hospital, step aside and give this group of individuals the land to build on. Or would you think twice about this group of people, especially when you look closer and realize that none of them are in the construction business, they had no financial backing of investors, and they had no revenue streams. In fact, this group of individuals is planning on funding the hospital by building thousands and thousands of houses in close proximity to the hospital. They expect everyone to pay an extra $100,000 or more just because they live near a hospital, and they expect all of those people who live nearby to voluntarily give large amounts of money to the hospital year after year after year.

Do you truly believe that a hospital would ever be built? Even if it could, how long do you think it would take, and how long do you think they could sustain operations. Would you truly think that the City should just hand over the land and let a corporate entity like this take over something this critical. Do you honestly think that you could construct a hospital based purely on voluntary contributions from its neighbours, and pay for it year after year.

If you wouldn't do it for a hospital then why would you do it for a railway network because that is in essence what MOOSE is planning, but in a railway context. They are a group of individuals who aren't a railway company, have no financial investors, and have no viable means of generating revenue. And yet they expect the City to just step aside and let them take over parts of our municipal transit system.

I am strongly on the side of the City on this one.

 

[micheal_can]

I don't think most of you understand the opposition to MOOSE that some of us have. It's not that we're anti-rail in the least. This has to do with MOOSE's plan and how they mean to implement it.

Let me use an analogy. The City of Ottawa is planning on building a new Civic Hospital Campus on the old Sir John Carling site. It's planned, approved, will be funded, but awaiting construction. Imagine now that a group of folks come around and tell the City to stop their current plans to build the hospital. Rather, they're going to build the hospital instead and run it privately. They're going to do this at no cost to the taxpayer, and no one is ever going to have to pay a penny to operate the hospital, ever. Additionally, the hospital will be bigger than the current planned one, with more beds, and every room will be a single room, no sharing.

Sounds too good to be true, well it probably is. Would you stop your current plans to build the hospital, step aside and give this group of individuals the land to build on. Or would you think twice about this group of people, especially when you look closer and realize that none of them are in the construction business, they had no financial backing of investors, and they had no revenue streams. In fact, this group of individuals is planning on funding the hospital by building thousands and thousands of houses in close proximity to the hospital. They expect everyone to pay an extra $100,000 or more just because they live near a hospital, and they expect all of those people who live nearby to voluntarily give large amounts of money to the hospital year after year after year.

Do you truly believe that a hospital would ever be built? Even if it could, how long do you think it would take, and how long do you think they could sustain operations. Would you truly think that the City should just hand over the land and let a corporate entity like this take over something this critical. Do you honestly think that you could construct a hospital based purely on voluntary contributions from its neighbours, and pay for it year after year.

If you wouldn't do it for a hospital then why would you do it for a railway network because that is in essence what MOOSE is planning, but in a railway context. They are a group of individuals who aren't a railway company, have no financial investors, and have no viable means of generating revenue. And yet they expect the City to just step aside and let them take over parts of our municipal transit system.

I am strongly on the side of the City on this one.

I believe those hospitals are called P3.

 

[OCCheetos]

MOOSE in its current capacity hasn't asked the city to get off its rails or stop progression of the Stage 2 plan. If/When MOOSE got to the point of needing access to their rails, they would have the investment and resources they'd need to begin actual operation.
It's not as though MOOSE has asked the city to cease all Trillium Line operations while they try and secure their funding. They haven't even tried to slow or stop Stage 2 from being approved/built.

I'm pretty sure MOOSE has offered, or has mentioned that they would offer the position of operating their trains to the city... so in the hospital example that would be like someone offering to build the hospital facilities and then handing over all operations back to the city. Frankly that doesn't sound terrible to me.

 

[kEiThZ]

Do you really consider 15,000 households to be just some sprawl?

No. It's deplorable. But in Ottawa's case that sprawl is happening. Like it or not. The only question is whether those residents use transit or clog up the roads.

But compared to what Moose would need to sustain their business model, that's trifling. And Moose literally needs to create a market for sprawl to make their business model work.

And again. Whataboutism is really not a valid argument.

 

[OCCheetos]

I specifically addressed the current plan. I have repeatedly criticized the current LRT plan for extending past the greenbelt. And I made those views known at every public consultation I attended.

However, this is whataboutism. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because Stage 2 will enable some sprawl, does not mean the floodgates should the thrown up to full exurban development. And let's be clear, that is exactly what we're talking about. Nobody is going to be moving to Arnprior to live in a semi. If they are moving that far, while their primary employment is in Ottawa, it's for the full exurban lifestyle.

It's terrible for the environment, but I am not to argue against freedom of choice, as long as their lifestyle does not cost Ottawa residents money or services. If we're going to start arguing that Ottawa resident should see worse service on the Trillium Line so that their exurban lifestyle can be accommodated, or if we start seeing higher taxes to support infrastructure expansion to service those communities, that is when I think speaking out against such proposals is warranted.

MOOSE's plans as far as "density" go can be found in this (draft) document.
Multiple smaller communities surrounding a train station seems better than whatever Riverside South is headed for. (Transit-wise, that would mean lots of infrequent, slow, winding local bus routes that feed into a bigger station. Given the existence of Connexion and previously express routes, I don't think many people like that as a transit solution).

You're also still claiming that service on the Trillium Line will suffer as if that's some kind of fact.

What conclusive evidence is there that Ottawa residents benefit from MOOSE?

I think I've mentioned most of those. Double Tracking, PoW bridge restored with pedestrian usage included, trains cars that have two whole doors on them... etc.

 

[kEiThZ]

They haven't even tried to slow or stop Stage 2 from being approved/built.

Nah. They file lawsuits against cities that want to turn rail corridors into home trails. Lawsuits which residents in those areas don't support.

 

[OCCheetos]

Nah. They file lawsuits against cities that want to turn rail corridors into home trails. Lawsuits which residents in those areas don't support.

Fair point, however they were trying to ensure due process (discontinuance) was followed, although in the end it was determined that it wasn't necessary.
They didn't try to stop CN several years ago. (In fact, a non-corporate entity did!)



This article has Mr. Potvin stating that they only care about developments within their 800m radius of the station. They don't have plans to sell large properties (or any at all) outside of that area, so that idea of yours kind of goes out the window.

 

[kEiThZ]

Multiple smaller communities surrounding a train station seems better than whatever Riverside South is headed for.

If those smaller communities can avoid sprawling out.

It defies logic though on why anybody would move to a very small town to simply live in a small home with little land. I'll buy your argument if all the towns supporting MOOSE agree to very strict zoning that disallow exurban development. Wanna take bets on how many of these communities would sign up for that?

You're also still claiming that service on the Trillium Line will suffer as if that's some kind of fact.

I think I've mentioned most of those. Double Tracking,

Can you please provide a documented source from MOOSE that says they will double track the Trillium Line prior to launching service? I've read through their docs. I can't find any firm commitment. But maybe I missed it. If you want to provide such, I'll readily change my stance.

But in the absence of any firm commitment to double tracking prior to launch, I think I am fair to assume that corridor capacity constraints will mean less service for OC Transpo trains.

PoW bridge restored with pedestrian usage included,

Personally, I question the value of pedestrian walkways here. It's not a short distance to cross at the PoW and its west of Hull. There's not much in the vicinity of Alex. Tache.

But even if it's desirable, I don't see why we need Moose for this, or why it's an important consideration at all. Whoever ends up using the bridge will do just that. If it ends up as an STO busway to feed a Bayview hub (as is being proposed on SSP), we'd end up with a restored PoW with pedestrian walkways too.

trains cars that have two whole doors on them... etc.

Moose has definitively picked their rolling stock? Didn't know they did that. Can you provide the link to that announcement?

 

[kEiThZ]

This article has Mr. Potvin stating that they only care about developments within their 800m radius of the station. They don't have plans to sell large properties outside of that area, so that idea of yours kind of goes out the window.

Are you naive or wilfully ignorant? I can't tell at this point.

Yes, they aren't selling outside the 800m radius. I have never claimed they did. I claimed that the existence of a regional rail service would enable sprawl, as homebuyers take advantage of MOOSE services to enable an exurban lifestyle. The same way that GO enables 905 commuters to live in places like Barrie without having to put up with a long driving commute.

Your argument is akin to saying that the catchment and relevant area of a GO station is the 800m radius around it. Are you going to make that suggestion with a straight face?

If their whole ridership is within 800m of their stations, why do they need parking lots?