[Allandale25]

^ Just for transparency, I don't live in Ottawa. I might only visit once a year and I use transit when I visit.

 

[micheal_can]

Let's simplify the discussion:

1) Can anybody explain how Moose's plans as proposed (not using future hypotheticals) benefit Ottawa residents?

2) How many of you commenting actually use transit in Ottawa?

Heck, I'd like answers to these questions from Mr. Potvin too.

1) If the proposed Moose is going to be frequent, it would allow the city to spend tax dollars on other transit matters.

2) I don't live in Ottawa, but in the future I may be moving there, and it would be nice to take the transit around for work, etc.

 

[OCCheetos]

Mr. Potvin talks out of both sides of his mouth, so to speak. On one hand, he'll do wonders and double track the line. On the other hand, he can't commit to frequencies as good as Stage 2. Ask him about it, and you'll get is a dodge. Ask him about compatibility and he'll tell you that maybe OC Transpo should just turn over the line. He hasn't yet shown how OC Transpo and Moose will share the tracks.

How nice for him though that there are useful idiots gullible enough to buy his codswallop and cheer on his plan based on railfan hypotheticals.

Again, if his plan is so great, why isn't OC Transpo jumping to get a second track? Do you think OC Transpo wouldn't love the added capacity and to share the costs?

Now hold on a second there...
Literally two days ago Mr. Potvin stated on this very forum that MOOSE would commit to double tracking the line and working towards 5 minute frequencies.. What kind of frequencies are you expecting from Stage 2, and do you honestly believe that they can be achieved with the current plan?

Because the city thinks "we've got this", like they did with the last upgrade.

 

[OCCheetos]

Let's simplify the discussion:

1) Can anybody explain how Moose's plans as proposed (not using future hypotheticals) benefit Ottawa residents?

2) How many of you commenting actually use transit in Ottawa?

Heck, I'd like answers to these questions from Mr. Potvin too.

1) I don't see how double tracking or pedestrian infrastructure spending are "future hypotheticals", unless MOOSE itself is a "future hypothetical"?

2) I'm a daily Trillium Line user.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'd just like to draw the attention to this September quote by Mr. Potvin in the context of Moose's view of what should happen in the region. He believes that competition to the publicly-funded, approved, regional plan is a good thing. When he's talk about Mayor Watson below, it might as well be seen as commentary on the vast majority of Ottawa Council, and the Provincial and Federal government, notwithstanding some supportive comments for the Moose plan by one MP who represents Hull.



Speaking of "quickly", it's now almost March of 2018.

I'd love it if Moose was competing to give me better service. That's not what is on offer though.

They want to use an asset my tax dollars support to give my neighbours and me worse service, while using that same asset to help them sell real estate in communities 50km away, who don't pay a lick of taxes in Ottawa.

 

[Allandale25]

Now hold on a second there...
Literally two days ago Mr. Potvin stated on this very forum that MOOSE would commit to double tracking the line and working towards 5 minute frequencies.. What kind of frequencies are you expecting from Stage 2, and do you honestly believe that they can be achieved with the current plan?

Because the city thinks "we've got this", like they did with the last upgrade.

Yet in the links others have posted they are still indicating hour frequencies on their website. That's it for specifics. Don't provide a lot of comfort. I don't read his comment as a commitment. He said he would try. It's surprising their website can't keep up to things mention here they'll try on such a key topic.

 

[OCCheetos]

Yet in the links others have posted they are still indicating hour frequencies on their website. That's it for specifics. Don't provide a lot of comfort. I don't read his comment as a commitment. He said he would try. It's surprising their website can't keep up to things mention here they'll try on such a key topic.

People complain when Mr. Potvin doesn't answer questions, and then they still do when he actually answers them...
There's clearly no winning for MOOSE on this forum, is there?

 

[Allandale25]

^ I don't consider what I am doing complaining. I am noting an apparent contradiction and asking for clarity. One would think that regular users of the existing and future transit services on the Trillium Line would want to know the answers to a fundamental question like this. Also, given what I've previously pointed out, one would think they would want to know if they use the Greenboro station and it's going to move under the Moose plan.

 

[micheal_can]

Let's play "What if?"

What if the Trillium line were to remain intact, with frequencies of 5 minutes. What if every half hour, one of those trains were one of the Moose's? What if, within the distance of running along the Trillium line, the same fare applied? What would happen if it were every 10 minutes or better for the Moose?

Would that work?

 

[Allandale25]

^ Helpful questions for a constructive discussion. Two items come to mind: 1) Would Moose and Trillium need to run similar rolling stock to get Transport Canada approval (IE avoid what happens in Waterloo Region)? I realize this has been discussed here before at length. 2) What kind of double or triple tracking would be required to make that happen? Maybe others here with more information or an understanding can provide some insight.

 

[kEiThZ]

1) I don't see how double tracking or pedestrian infrastructure spending are "future hypotheticals", unless MOOSE itself is a "future hypothetical"?

When Moose is not committing to double tracking at launch, it's a future hypothetical. Saying it on a discussion forum is not a commitment. Is it in their submissions to regulators? As it stands, I see Moose as hoping the city can work in their service on existing infrastructure. And will only pay for double track if they absolutely need too.

And double tracking will still not address issues of sharing track, station locations or frequencies. Can Moose's proposed bi-levels share track with the diesel LRT that OC Transpo currently uses? Where will the stations locations be? And what frequencies will Moose commit to at launch?

2) I'm a daily Trillium Line user.

And you have no problem with reduced frequencies?

 

[Allandale25]

^ Speaking of bi-levels sharing track with diesel LRT, quick reminder of the heavy rail MP40PH-3C Moose shows as what it supposedly wants for the Bridge...

 

[kEiThZ]

1) If the proposed Moose is going to be frequent, it would allow the city to spend tax dollars on other transit matters.

I don't consider a train every 30 mins to be frequent. The current service runs at 12 min frequencies. And after Stage 2, the LRT will be going to 8 min frequencies. If Moose commits to that or better, I'll be the first one to tell my councillor, MPP and MP to support them.

2) I don't live in Ottawa, but in the future I may be moving there, and it would be nice to take the transit around for work, etc.

And when you do, you'll quickly see why Moose's proposal is so impractical. Easy to armchair quarterback from the GTA when it will not impact you.

 

[kEiThZ]

People complain when Mr. Potvin doesn't answer questions, and then they still do when he actually answers them...
There's clearly no winning for MOOSE on this forum, is there?

Now hold on a second there...
Literally two days ago Mr. Potvin stated on this very forum that MOOSE would commit to double tracking the line and working towards 5 minute frequencies.. What kind of frequencies are you expecting from Stage 2, and do you honestly believe that they can be achieved with the current plan?

Because the city thinks "we've got this", like they did with the last upgrade.

Answering questions vaguely on a forum is not a real answer. What's he telling regulators? And what's Moose telling their potential investors on what services they will provide? That's what I want to know, because that's in the public interest. Fundamentally, the less service they provide, the better for their bottom line. Oh they say it'll boost property values to offer more, but they know, that most people are like you: use the train in the morning and afternoon.

Then there's all the holes in their "commitments". If Charles is able to do some basic math to show the flaws based on what Moose has provided publicly, I can only imagine why professional planners, politicians and investors act like Moose doesn't really exist. Can't wait for Stage 2 launch and this bridge saga to be done, so that we can give the troll the exact same attention as how much his investors put in. It's just sad, that the city has to pay out tens of millions to cater to their nonsense (albeit for a mistake they should have known better on).

Oh. And yes, I believe the city when they say they'll achieve those frequencies. I believe, they've learned from their mistakes on the current line. Now can you provide anything other than conjecture on why they won't achieve claimed frequencies post-Stage 2? Let's see some concrete evidence to back up your claim that the Trillium Line will not achieve 8 minute intervals after Stage 2. And your ridiculous whataboutism red herring ignores the fact (conveniently), that even if the city failed on their commitment, they'd still offer more frequencies than Moose is even proposing at launch.

 

[OCCheetos]

^ Helpful questions for a constructive discussion. Two items come to mind: 1) Would Moose and Trillium need to run similar rolling stock to get Transport Canada approval (IE avoid what happens in Waterloo Region)? I realize this has been discussed here before at length. 2) What kind of double or triple tracking would be required to make that happen? Maybe others here with more information or an understanding can provide some insight.

I've asked this question on both forums several times and it's always been dismissed as either "not what MOOSE wants" or "impossible", but it's good to see more questions being asked about the idea.

1) Probably not. (That isn't what they're doing in Waterloo anyway). MOOSE and OC Transpo should be able to share the track using their planned vehicles with an exemption from the CTA. This report done for the Government of Québec demonstrated that there is precedence for this type of exemption being allowed (Section 6.4.5). The report was being done about the Mount Royal tunnel on the possibility of Via and the future REM sharing the tunnel.

2) Complete double tracking would likely be a necessity. There just aren't enough passing tracks to add more trains. Beyond that, there are millions of ways that this kind of arrangement could be operated, so it's hard to say without more info on Stage 2 or MOOSE's station locations.

@Joseph Potvin If the city were to tell MOOSE that they would only accept your proposal if they were allowed to continue operating their trains under this^ type of arrangement, would MOOSE consider it?