Dan416
Senior Member
Don't remind us about the Sorbara line to Vaughan. It'll result in 5 pages of cynicism before we get back on track.
As for using rail corridors, we really should.
As for using rail corridors, we really should.
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- Thread starter Fad225
- Start date
spaced
Active Member
$17B for transit is good, right?
TheStar.com
October 17, 2007
Royson James
You can call it the quietest $17 billion gift ever promised the Toronto region in our lifetime – such has been the low-key, almost "I don't believe it" reaction to the province's stupendous funding announcement for public transit.
Aired in June, the plan purports to fund just about every wish-list project in Toronto, 905 and Hamilton – busways and LRTs and subway and GO rail extensions.
You'd think they'd be screaming in orgasmic delight from the clamshell at Toronto City Hall to the far-flung bedroom communities whose workers must traverse the GTA each day. You'd think there would have been a huge news conference, replete with town crier and horns and ribbons and pronouncements that the holy grail has finally been seized and the Toronto region had finally reached transit nirvana.
No. Nothing. Just sober reflection. It's almost as if the municipal leaders and transit advocates are saying, "Thank you, Mr. Premier. It's just what we expected. What took you so long?"
Maybe we've become accustomed to $17 billion announcements.
A few years back Рdoesn't matter which year exactly, as that only adds to the embarrassment over slow progress Рthe Three Amigos (Jean Chr̩tien, Mike Harris and Mel Lastman) met at the Docks to announce a $17 billion makeover of Toronto's waterfront. That is to occur over 30 years.
The transit money is actually $17.5 billion, spread over 12 years.
Maybe everyone is waiting for the Greater Toronto Transit Authority, the agency set up by Queen's Park, to translate the announcement into reality. The provincial Liberals announced their MoveOntario 2020 vision and the GTTA is to turn vision into plan next spring.
Maybe transit bodies are fearful the massive amount of money still won't be enough.
How so? Only two-thirds of the money is coming from Queen's Park. The province is asking Ottawa to pick up the rest of the tab, some $6 billion. Predictably, the federal government is mum, if not dismissive of the idea.
Maybe some are concerned that even if the feds acquiesce, the money will be too long in coming. Consider that in March, the Stephen Harper government announced nearly $1 billion in funding for transit, including huge sums to finance the subway expansion to York University. None of that money has flowed yet, locked in red tape. Imagine the delays with a plan they didn't conceive.
Maybe there are concerns about how we will operate all these projects – if and when they're built. Currently, the fare box covers too much of transit fares as municipal budgets strain to provide operating subsidies. If the City of Toronto, for example, can't afford to maintain and operate its current system, how will it be able to manage by adding $6 billion of new projects, dubbed Transit City?
But even with those caveats, we are miles ahead of where we were.
Unlike the Mike Harris transit plan that split the funding three ways, the cash-strapped cities and towns have been spared their contribution. That, more than anything, is the greatest attribute of this vision.
Still, there is one other worry for the fretful taxpayer. If Ottawa falls short of the $6 billion share, the GTTA may turn to tolls to pick up the shortfall.
Oh, sorry, they already have other ideas for the toll revenues – such as paying the stifling operating costs of transit.
Transit has never had it so good in these parts. And it stands to get better soon. Be happy, people, fears of road tolls notwithstanding.
TheStar.com
October 17, 2007
Royson James
You can call it the quietest $17 billion gift ever promised the Toronto region in our lifetime – such has been the low-key, almost "I don't believe it" reaction to the province's stupendous funding announcement for public transit.
Aired in June, the plan purports to fund just about every wish-list project in Toronto, 905 and Hamilton – busways and LRTs and subway and GO rail extensions.
You'd think they'd be screaming in orgasmic delight from the clamshell at Toronto City Hall to the far-flung bedroom communities whose workers must traverse the GTA each day. You'd think there would have been a huge news conference, replete with town crier and horns and ribbons and pronouncements that the holy grail has finally been seized and the Toronto region had finally reached transit nirvana.
No. Nothing. Just sober reflection. It's almost as if the municipal leaders and transit advocates are saying, "Thank you, Mr. Premier. It's just what we expected. What took you so long?"
Maybe we've become accustomed to $17 billion announcements.
A few years back Рdoesn't matter which year exactly, as that only adds to the embarrassment over slow progress Рthe Three Amigos (Jean Chr̩tien, Mike Harris and Mel Lastman) met at the Docks to announce a $17 billion makeover of Toronto's waterfront. That is to occur over 30 years.
The transit money is actually $17.5 billion, spread over 12 years.
Maybe everyone is waiting for the Greater Toronto Transit Authority, the agency set up by Queen's Park, to translate the announcement into reality. The provincial Liberals announced their MoveOntario 2020 vision and the GTTA is to turn vision into plan next spring.
Maybe transit bodies are fearful the massive amount of money still won't be enough.
How so? Only two-thirds of the money is coming from Queen's Park. The province is asking Ottawa to pick up the rest of the tab, some $6 billion. Predictably, the federal government is mum, if not dismissive of the idea.
Maybe some are concerned that even if the feds acquiesce, the money will be too long in coming. Consider that in March, the Stephen Harper government announced nearly $1 billion in funding for transit, including huge sums to finance the subway expansion to York University. None of that money has flowed yet, locked in red tape. Imagine the delays with a plan they didn't conceive.
Maybe there are concerns about how we will operate all these projects – if and when they're built. Currently, the fare box covers too much of transit fares as municipal budgets strain to provide operating subsidies. If the City of Toronto, for example, can't afford to maintain and operate its current system, how will it be able to manage by adding $6 billion of new projects, dubbed Transit City?
But even with those caveats, we are miles ahead of where we were.
Unlike the Mike Harris transit plan that split the funding three ways, the cash-strapped cities and towns have been spared their contribution. That, more than anything, is the greatest attribute of this vision.
Still, there is one other worry for the fretful taxpayer. If Ottawa falls short of the $6 billion share, the GTTA may turn to tolls to pick up the shortfall.
Oh, sorry, they already have other ideas for the toll revenues – such as paying the stifling operating costs of transit.
Transit has never had it so good in these parts. And it stands to get better soon. Be happy, people, fears of road tolls notwithstanding.
So just build 12 billion worth. Still a significant amount.
GregWTravels
Active Member
Wouldn't be the first time that a politician promised something and took it back. I think that people, municipal councillors among them, have become some cynical and jaded that until something actual happens, no one wants to get their hopes up about it occuring.
gibsonm
Active Member
I have to agree that the cynicism is well-founded. Remember the rail-link to between Union and Pearson? Yes, the controversy in Weston surrounding Blue 22 is well-documented. There have been countless alternative visions that included more station stops and lower fares, but the reality is that a new rail-link that the feds promised would be built does not exist in any form. No politician will force the issue either because of the associated controversy in Weston. That's why, even though I have my own visions for transit in the GTA -- I actually like streetcars because they define the character of the city and would rather see new subway lines that do NOT replace existing streetcar lines -- I'm far more concerned with seeing any plans at all for new transit get implemented. Everyone in and around Toronto is aching for additional, convenient, rapid transit. It is one of the few measures that has appeal across all party lines and kills many birds with one stone (environment, economy, quality of life). But unless immense pressure is put on all levels of government, particularly the feds who have the money and the responsibility to do their part, none of these grand plans will go anywhere. I'm afraid many of these announcements and news articles generate interesting stories and placate the public until we forget and find something else to take our attention off the issues that really matter.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
All the idle cynical commentary is great, but it completely neglects the fact that this funding is programmed and clearly outlined. Money will be borrowed and placed into a fund to provide the money needed for these projects. The Airport Link study is still in progress, it didn't have budgeted funding, and the government that supported it has been defeated. The Liberal government that proposed Move Ontario 2020 a few months ago has just been re-elected with an expanded majority.
Clearly all the cynicism is derived from the fact that it's a Liberal government proposing this. Everybody's been so indoctrinated that Liberal=Bad that nobody could ever expect them to do something so good, it's beyond our wildest expectations.
It will take a while to build these projects and they will have to be studied. Unfortunately, we can't have construction teams on the sites tomorrow, as most of the projects don't have even the most rudimentary designs completed. I also suspect that a few will face significant community opposition, especially some of the Transit City lines once it is revealed that they will cost thousands of trees and hundreds of front lawns. None of this takes away from the fact that this is by far the largest transit investment in Canadian history.
Clearly all the cynicism is derived from the fact that it's a Liberal government proposing this. Everybody's been so indoctrinated that Liberal=Bad that nobody could ever expect them to do something so good, it's beyond our wildest expectations.
It will take a while to build these projects and they will have to be studied. Unfortunately, we can't have construction teams on the sites tomorrow, as most of the projects don't have even the most rudimentary designs completed. I also suspect that a few will face significant community opposition, especially some of the Transit City lines once it is revealed that they will cost thousands of trees and hundreds of front lawns. None of this takes away from the fact that this is by far the largest transit investment in Canadian history.
gibsonm
Active Member
Money was allocated for the rail-link. The environmental assessment is underway. At this point, the decision becomes a political one as the government weighs public opinion. You can expect years of waiting, if it ever goes ahead. My suspicion is that it won't, because the NIMBY's were too picky and wanted it tailor made. It's an old story. Until I see shovels in the ground on any of the "Transit City" or "GO 2020" or "GTTA" visions, I won't buy into them. The visions are revised every few years and new organizations and plans emerge, old promises in new wrappers. Sorry, there are solid plans going back to the 70's. Let's see action.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Yes, there are solid plans, but they didn't have solid money. Of course some projects will be shot down by the local communities in which they are to be built, but that can hardly be blamed on promise-breaking politicians.
CDL.TO
Moderator
I don't blame people for their skepticism. I'm plenty skeptical as well. Mike Harris proved that a transit project could be under construction and still be cancelled. No one knows who will be in power in 4 years and what their priorities will be. We all know that the clear majority of these projects won't have even started construction in 2011.
People have seen plans come and go, and funding be announced and never delivered. If the forumers of UT can be so skeptical about the Trump condo that they have no stake in, you should be able to understand their skepticism of a $17 billion plan with millions of stakeholders.
Claiming that the only reason that most people are skeptical is because they've been indoctrinated against one political party (one that just won a resounding majority, may I point out?) is treating people like blind unthinking fools and is quite frankly insulting. If anything, people are skeptical that the end result will in any way resemble what has been announced and don't give a damn about the politics except to believe that it will mess it all up in the end.
People have seen plans come and go, and funding be announced and never delivered. If the forumers of UT can be so skeptical about the Trump condo that they have no stake in, you should be able to understand their skepticism of a $17 billion plan with millions of stakeholders.
Claiming that the only reason that most people are skeptical is because they've been indoctrinated against one political party (one that just won a resounding majority, may I point out?) is treating people like blind unthinking fools and is quite frankly insulting. If anything, people are skeptical that the end result will in any way resemble what has been announced and don't give a damn about the politics except to believe that it will mess it all up in the end.
rbt
Senior Member
Some parts will get done. In fact, a good chunk of the GO work was already underway before the announcement.
All of it? I hope not. There are a few portions I could get motivated to actively oppose.
If federal funding becomes available it will be guaranteed to delay all projects by a minimum of 1 year. Federal red-tape is the only reason the subway extension hasn't been under construction for the 6 months.
Technically the province has not yet officially asked the feds for money yet. McGuinty was waiting for a mandate from the electorate before doing that.
All of it? I hope not. There are a few portions I could get motivated to actively oppose.
If federal funding becomes available it will be guaranteed to delay all projects by a minimum of 1 year. Federal red-tape is the only reason the subway extension hasn't been under construction for the 6 months.
Technically the province has not yet officially asked the feds for money yet. McGuinty was waiting for a mandate from the electorate before doing that.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Of course you're right cdl, but there's a difference: this money is going to be sitting there in a special fund labelled "Move Ontario 2020" which is entirely different from a project like Eglinton West, which was drawing money from general revenues every year.
I'm obviously a bit paranoid, but look at how as soon as they won that massive majority, everybody was going on about how it wasn't somehow a Liberal win -- it was all Tory's fault and obviously people would have voted for him if it weren't for his horrible mistake. Nobody ever actually wants to vote Liberal, and if they do it's because they're crazy, stupid, or paid off.
I hope that it gets a bit messed up in the end. Transit City and some of the other routes are clearly not entirely thought through. The former is designed for political as much as service reasons (streetcars to every ward, junctions at Malvern, Jane & Finch, and Flemingdon Park), while some of the suburban routes could use rethinking to improve connectivity. I hope that the GTTA will be able to sort all these conflicting plans out and determine what really is the best use of this money. First step: Sheppard and Scarborough RT as subway!
CDL.TO
Moderator
You just need to stop listening to the naysayers. Put down that National Post and back away!!! Although plenty have gone on about McGunity being terrible and all, most of this has been in the media. A look at those polls that look at the bigger picture shows something else. People are happy with where the province is headed, they feel that their lives have improved, and feel that society has become more stable.
The general public doesn't see failure as the terrible evil that the media presents it as. We all make mistakes and it seems that people would rather vote for someone who promises much but can't deliver it all than someone who promises nothing at all. If the electorate is "hiring" someone to manage the province, who would you rather hire? Someone who says they want to streamline this, update that, improve this, reorganize that, increase this good thing, decrease that bad thing, with the knowledge that not everything will get done and priorities will be reassessed, OR would you hire someone who says he plans to do very little because he might make a mistake?
Simply, the desire for change was weak. Tory initially had strong support because he was presented as a man who would present the same good policy but do it in a more capable way. There's definitely parallels to Paul Martin. Upon proving this not to be true, his support evaporated. His platform was so weak that it would crumble the moment there was a problem. That's why I was predicting a Liberal majority 5 months ago.
Guess this should have been in the politics section. Ah well.
Back on topic... First steps... Scarborough RT as a subway and GO improvements!
The general public doesn't see failure as the terrible evil that the media presents it as. We all make mistakes and it seems that people would rather vote for someone who promises much but can't deliver it all than someone who promises nothing at all. If the electorate is "hiring" someone to manage the province, who would you rather hire? Someone who says they want to streamline this, update that, improve this, reorganize that, increase this good thing, decrease that bad thing, with the knowledge that not everything will get done and priorities will be reassessed, OR would you hire someone who says he plans to do very little because he might make a mistake?
Simply, the desire for change was weak. Tory initially had strong support because he was presented as a man who would present the same good policy but do it in a more capable way. There's definitely parallels to Paul Martin. Upon proving this not to be true, his support evaporated. His platform was so weak that it would crumble the moment there was a problem. That's why I was predicting a Liberal majority 5 months ago.
Guess this should have been in the politics section. Ah well.
Back on topic... First steps... Scarborough RT as a subway and GO improvements!
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Good points, cdl. Thanks!
Absolutely! Those are the most obvious first transit steps in the entire city. I can't think of any two that would have more benefit. I was very active during the (brief) push for a Scarborough Subway, but I don't know who to write letters to/harass now. I don't really know any of the Scarborough politicians, and I'm not sure that the provincial government will try to ram a subway down the throats of local councillors when Deer-in-Headlights-DeBaeremaeker doesn't even want one, no matter how much sense it makes.
Web of Streetcars!
Absolutely! Those are the most obvious first transit steps in the entire city. I can't think of any two that would have more benefit. I was very active during the (brief) push for a Scarborough Subway, but I don't know who to write letters to/harass now. I don't really know any of the Scarborough politicians, and I'm not sure that the provincial government will try to ram a subway down the throats of local councillors when Deer-in-Headlights-DeBaeremaeker doesn't even want one, no matter how much sense it makes.
Web of Streetcars!
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The GO improvements are exciting because GO service is so awful on some of the branches and the bang/buck ratio would be very high. The York Region lines, in particular, will be infinitely better.
Assuming they tunnel the whole way in a vaguely Brimley-ish alignment, pretty much the only people who would oppose a Danforth extension are some of the 900 people per day who use Ellesmere station (many of whom drive or are driven to the station), and some residents of the buildings around Lawrence East who may no longer be within walking distance of the RT (even though the loss of a transfer may in fact save them some time). Councillors know that people support the extension...I don't think writing to or harrassing to anyone will do anything at this point because it's the city that's preventing the project - it would have gotten MoveOntario2020 funding.
Maybe the province will ram it down our throats just to spite the city!
Assuming they tunnel the whole way in a vaguely Brimley-ish alignment, pretty much the only people who would oppose a Danforth extension are some of the 900 people per day who use Ellesmere station (many of whom drive or are driven to the station), and some residents of the buildings around Lawrence East who may no longer be within walking distance of the RT (even though the loss of a transfer may in fact save them some time). Councillors know that people support the extension...I don't think writing to or harrassing to anyone will do anything at this point because it's the city that's preventing the project - it would have gotten MoveOntario2020 funding.
Maybe the province will ram it down our throats just to spite the city!
Just like they did the last time. Oh wait...