unimaginative2
Senior Member
You suspect?
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- Thread starter lordmandeep
- Start date
You suspect?
ShonTron
Moderator
adma
Superstar
Or maybe hold up this sign
kEiThZ
Superstar
I am guessing that Mot et al. don't pay property taxes or that they have such extravagant earnings that 4-5% tax hikes don't faze them at all.
lordmandeep
Banned
That is true, you ever here Adam Vaughan talk about tax hikes.
He was like its only a few more dollars....
He was like its only a few more dollars....
Mot
Active Member
kEiThZ
Superstar
Mot
Active Member
Sure Keith and I am going to sprout wings and fly over the CN tower.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
kEiTHz:
Have it occured to you that others might have different priorities than you do? For example, I am indeed concerned about how taxes are spent - and I don't consider spending billions on C-17 or other contracts without competitive bidding is exactly without concern.
I don't have a problem with giving workers a good wage - my problem is how to ensure those who are paid that amount of money is doing a competent job.
AoD
Have it occured to you that others might have different priorities than you do? For example, I am indeed concerned about how taxes are spent - and I don't consider spending billions on C-17 or other contracts without competitive bidding is exactly without concern.
I don't have a problem with giving workers a good wage - my problem is how to ensure those who are paid that amount of money is doing a competent job.
AoD
kEiThZ
Superstar
You are right. Civic workers deserve to be adequately compensated for the important functions they undertake in society.
In fact, I have no problem with paying higher taxes either. I understand that taxes are the price for a civilized society. However, its my opinion that given Toronto's fiscal situation and the the rate differential with the 905, I don't think its fair that the unions are still pushing for such pay raises. And keep in mind they are seeking these raises on the backs of people who make nowhere near as much as they do.
And quite frankly, for certain jobs, I do think they are over compensated. Why does a police officer make more than a private serving in Afghanistan? I understand that policing Toronto is a demanding and dangerous gig, but are we as a society saying that the TO police officer faces a more serious challenge than a soldier in a war zone? Why does a TTC driver make close to what I (a military engineering officer) make, when he/she has no significant education or training? Given that school bus drivers make half the hourly rate and transport more precious cargo, do you think its fair? Heck, TTC drivers make more than most health care professionals (doctors excepted). What does this say about society's value of education and training? Should we be telling kids to stay in school, go to university, or take up a trade, when they can save years, do a few months of the on the job training and make as much (or more than) as a professional who spent half a decade at university.
The only reason, the public service unions get away with their demands is because they get to hold a service providing monopoly (the government) hostage and demand what they want. Sure they deserve compensation. But their tactics leave much to be desired....ie various TTC strikes (they could work to rule, but then they would actually be serving the public). They truly have moved well beyond serving the public.
I want a better city. I want my taxes going into infrastructure and social services. I don't want every tax raise, federal/provincial grant, transit fare hike, etc. going towards over the top pay raises (when does anyone in the federal/provincial civil service, or the private sector get 4-5% on one go?) for some already well off individuals. And I want a mayor who will understand this and put the residents of this city first and foremost, not view ratepayers as an ATM for the Unions.
Mot
Active Member
The solution should be to raise the pay for the private in Afghanistan rather than lowering the salary for the cop in Toronto. At least that's what us liberals believe and it's why we support the working class more than the cons.
Transit Drivers drive for 8 hour shifts and make a salary. School Bus drivers are part timers working only a few hours a day. You can't compare the two simply because they both drive similar machinery.
I'd like evidence of most TTC drivers making more than health care professionals.
Kids should be told to take up whatever career they want and have the ability to perform. Not all kids are University material and everyone deserves a living wage.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I am all for pay raises, but where would you get the extra revenue? There is only so much you can tax businesses before off-shoring becomes attractive. And there's only so much you can tax the working class before they move to a lower tax jurisdiction. In our local example, I am worried about business and residents fleeing the 416. I don't think its at that point yet, but its probably starting together. Most of the major banks, for example, have moved many of their processing functions out of downtown and into the 905. They will start to value the downtown presence less and less as it gets more expensive to stay in the 416.
Again, I said hourly wage. I wasn't comparing total compensation.
http://www3.ttc.ca/Jobs/jobopps_operators1.jsp
http://www.ona.org/faq#f14
Those are some fairly comparable wages, but you have to factor in the fact that nurses don't often find full time employment immediately, have some rather long, late and difficult shifts, and most importantly of all, underwent 4 years of university and months of on the job training, at considerable expense and foregone wages to get where they were.
That's a fairly generic statement everyone agrees with. But how do you incentivize kids to max out on their potential when they know there are jobs that don't require years of study or training. As you say, not everyone is destined for university. Likewise, not everyone is destined to make a six figure salary. That's how capitalism works. Are you seriously telling me that GM line workers deserve over 30 bucks at hour (plus extravagant pensions, and some gucci health care)? I would argue that this is one of the reasons that the big 3 are going under. The companies got greedy with high profit suv's and the workers got greedy with over the top wage and benefit demands. Fair wages allow one a decently quality life. Having the spending power to have a boat, a mansion in the burbs, and several flat panel tv's is probably more than a living wage....and that's the lifestyle of several GM line workers I know.
The public service unions are rapidly depriving the city of Toronto of its spending power. Infrastructure spending, program services (parks and rec, climate change initiatives, etc.) and social services (subsidized housing backlog) are all lagging behind. If we want this city to be world class, we need a strong mayor who will constraint the unions to fair wage increases (say rate of inflation + 1 or so).
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
I'm not a fan of the TTC Union and its recent tactics by any stretch, buuut:
Unions get a lot of crap, but they really don't wield anywhere near the amount of power they used to, and tend to add up a small part of why any given industry might be seeing problems.
Take the auto industry, for example. Toyota and Honda run (mostly) non-unionized plants but still pay comparable rates to the union plants of the American automakers. If the union demands for high wages really were choking the life out of the Big Three, wouldn't Honda/Toyota be suffering too?
Blaming the unions for the declining auto industry is a fool's game. Ford/GM/Chrysler are in decline because they made terrible cars for over a decade, while at the same time their competitors made nicer, cheaper cars. And now the American companies are in even MORE trouble because they didn't anticipate rising gas prices and growing consumer demand for more fuel efficient cars.
All of that amounts to a big failure at the management level. The union has nothing to do with it.
Similarly, does Toronto have a union problem? Yes. Are they the biggest budgetary issue the city needs to deal with? Probably not. The city is the sorry fiscal state it is today because of Mike Harris' downloading in the late 90s. That's what needs to be addressed going forward. Full stop.
Unions get a lot of crap, but they really don't wield anywhere near the amount of power they used to, and tend to add up a small part of why any given industry might be seeing problems.
Take the auto industry, for example. Toyota and Honda run (mostly) non-unionized plants but still pay comparable rates to the union plants of the American automakers. If the union demands for high wages really were choking the life out of the Big Three, wouldn't Honda/Toyota be suffering too?
Blaming the unions for the declining auto industry is a fool's game. Ford/GM/Chrysler are in decline because they made terrible cars for over a decade, while at the same time their competitors made nicer, cheaper cars. And now the American companies are in even MORE trouble because they didn't anticipate rising gas prices and growing consumer demand for more fuel efficient cars.
All of that amounts to a big failure at the management level. The union has nothing to do with it.
Similarly, does Toronto have a union problem? Yes. Are they the biggest budgetary issue the city needs to deal with? Probably not. The city is the sorry fiscal state it is today because of Mike Harris' downloading in the late 90s. That's what needs to be addressed going forward. Full stop.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Agreed. And McGuinty has pledged to fix the downloading issue. And we need to hold his feet to the fire on that one.
But that doesn't negate the fact that unions are now pushing for raises that are well above inflation, and in one case (police union) demanding to the be highest paid in the country. It's pretty obvious you aren't fighting for working wages any more when you want to be the highest paid in the land....just because. Wages are the largest portion of the city's budget. These kinds of demands will quickly eat in to the city's spending power.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Graphic Matt is absolutely right about the auto sector. The reason the Big 3 are failing has nothing to do with high wages. Japanese and European auto workers make even more. It has to do with them making cars that nobody actually wants to buy. That's why the British car industry is gone, while the German and Japanese car industries are going strong. I can tell you that BMW workers have very strong unions and are very well paid.
For years, the Big 3 developed a record of abysmal build quality. Far too many people swore they'd never buy another American car after their experiences. For my mother, it was back in the 80s. They bought Chryslers and went through 3 in 3 years. The final one erupted into a mass of sparks while driving, as the electrical system completely died. They were just lucky that one of the doors was unlocked, because even the power locks failed. After that, it was just Hondas and Toyotas.
For years, the Big 3 developed a record of abysmal build quality. Far too many people swore they'd never buy another American car after their experiences. For my mother, it was back in the 80s. They bought Chryslers and went through 3 in 3 years. The final one erupted into a mass of sparks while driving, as the electrical system completely died. They were just lucky that one of the doors was unlocked, because even the power locks failed. After that, it was just Hondas and Toyotas.