[Voltz]

Really!!!!!!!!!!

40-42% of the contract is in Canada. The rest is in the US and off shore.

What does it cost transit riders and taxpayer to protect jobs in another city or Prov?

That nice low so call price is starting to climb just as I suspected it would.

vs all of it going to china?

You are kidding yourself if you think that siemens would have been willing to save us millions, did they ever know the ttc's exact specifications? There is much more to concider than the purchace price, such as life span, life cycle cost, reliability ect.

If I remember correctley....
The contract was cleared by two outside consultants, and the total cost mentioned in the media was really the maximium that the ttc was willing to spent on new cars before concidering other options, the actual cost was much less than that amount.

lets not forget that money spent in ontario gets returned to the government and put in the economy, that money will make its way to you and I.

25% is really not that high of an content requirement, as said by the ttc's consultant, it still allows for other bidders

 

[lead82]

25% is a reasonable amount of local content, but I would be strongly against anything higher, or the 100% proposed by some.

 

[unimaginative2]

Really!!!!!!!!!!

40-42% of the contract is in Canada. The rest is in the US and off shore.

Uh, versus 0% of the contract in Canada?

What does it cost transit riders and taxpayer to protect jobs in another city or Prov?

Not too damned much considering it's taxpayers from the rest of the province and the rest of Canada who are paying for most of these Toronto transit projects.

 

[allabootmatt]

Er...change that sentence to "it's taxpayers from Toronto (and a few other isolated places) who are paying for a huge proportion of government services in the rest of Ontario and Canada," and you will be closer to the mark.

 

[Voltz]

Er...change that sentence to "it's taxpayers from Toronto (and a few other isolated places) who are paying for a huge proportion of government services in the rest of Ontario and Canada," and you will be closer to the mark.

Very True

 

[unimaginative2]

People in other cities pay the exact same tax rate as you and me. In fact, a mill worker in Thunder Bay undoubtedly pays a lot more tax than I do. I'm not quite sure how Toronto feels that it's somehow entitled to more money from governments because its average citizens are richer. I can't even count how many people I've met who would consider themselves progressive, and yet are opposed to the very foundation of progressivism -- the progressive tax system. Of course Toronto pays more taxes. It's richer. Does Rosedale have the right to more government services than Parkdale because it pays more taxes?

 

[lordmandeep]

however you notice there are much better services in rosedale then in parkdale...

 

[allabootmatt]

Are there? I'm not really sure that's true...

 

[unimaginative2]

People in the same city don't pay the same tax rates as each other.

Uh, for federal and provincial tax, which is what we were talking about, they most assuredly do.

So, we don't all pay the same ?

We pay the same rate for our incomes, but a mill worker in Thunder Bay makes more money than I do, so he would pay more taxes. You understand, there's a difference between tax rate and taxes paid. If I make $10,000 a year, I will pay less tax than someone who makes $100,000 a year. That's because a tax rate is calculated based on a percentage of our total income. In Canada and Ontario, we also have a system called "Progressive Taxation" which means that as people make more money, the additional income is taxed at a higher percentage "rate" in various tax "brackets" for certain levels of income. I hope that helps clear things up for you.

There's a difference between rights and reality....which side of your mouth are you talking out of now?

Uh, I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but I think I'm pretty clear that I think government services should be provided based on need, and taxes should be collected based on ability to pay.

 

[unimaginative2]

Why Thunder Bay? What about the banker next door, doesn't he pay more taxes then you too?

Of course he or she does. But that doesn't meant that he or she deserves more or better government services than I do.

Why does Toronto subsidise the rest of the country?

Because it's richer. People who are wealthier pay more taxes. That's the whole point of a redistributive tax system. By your logic, Rosedale's sewers should be solid gold while Parkdale's sewers are starved for funds and allowed to crumble. I strongly disagree.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The various levels of government already collect and redistribute income from the residents of Toronto for health and social services, among other things. Which, btw, are often more expensive to provide in other locales due to lesser efficiencies of scale, etc.

I'm not quite sure how Toronto feels that it's somehow entitled to more money from governments because its average citizens are richer.

How about Toronto should receive more money (and not necessarily more than anyone, just more than what is received now) because it has needs (e.g. subways) that are extremely costly to build and maintain, and those needs, being essential to the continual economic success of the region (which provides a positive fiscal impact to the nation), are not necessarily present elsewhere?

Not too damned much considering it's taxpayers from the rest of the province and the rest of Canada who are paying for most of these Toronto transit projects.

You made it sound as if getting transit money is a charitable act from the senior levels of government - and it's a responsiblity that they have neglected to a greater or lesser degree for oh, what, the past 30 years, while they engage in their priorities?

AoD

 

[unimaginative2]

How about Toronto should receive more money (and not necessarily more than anyone, just more than what is received now) because it has needs (e.g. subways) that are extremely costly to build and maintain, and those needs, being essential to the continual economic success of the region (which provides a positive fiscal impact to the nation), are not necessarily present elsewhere?

Yup, and they have been doing that for decades. Toronto gets bailouts and special transit funding every year unlike any other city, and that's quite appropriate. Like I said, funding should go according to need, not according to how much tax was paid from the jurisdiction.

You made it sound as if getting transit money is a charitable act from the senior levels of government - and it's a responsiblity that they have neglected to a greater or lesser degree for oh, what, the past 30 years, while they engage in their priorities?

No, I don't think it's charity and I've never said that. Obviously, I am an extremely active supporter of federal and provincial funding for Toronto transit, and I always have been so I have no idea where this is coming from. My problem is with Torontonians complaining that Federal and Provincial tax dollars shouldn't be kept at home as much as possible, or that Torontonians paying more taxes as a whole somehow entitles them to getting the exact same amount of money back in services.

 

[allabootmatt]

, or that Torontonians paying more taxes as a whole somehow entitles them to getting the exact same amount of money back in services.

No one is asking for the exact same amount back. But let's say that we cut the per-capita subsidy to the rest of the country for every man, woman, and child living in the 416 back to, say, $1400 instead of the $1800 it's at now. That money--our tax dollars all--would completely transform the city, and we would still function as a tax farm for the rest of Canada on a scale that's pretty much unparalleled in the developed world.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yup, and they have been doing that for decades. Toronto gets bailouts and special transit funding every year unlike any other city, and that's quite appropriate. Like I said, funding should go according to need, not according to how much tax was paid from the jurisdiction.

Actually it is TOTALLY inappropriate, knowing that you cannot do transit planning (much less expansion) with no certainity over funding. Beyond that, it isn't like the province are blind to the fact that there is a year-to-year need for transit monies in this jurisdiction.

No, I don't think it's charity and I've never said that. Obviously, I am an extremely active supporter of federal and provincial funding for Toronto transit, and I always have been so I have no idea where this is coming from.

No offense, but your sympathies differs at times markedly from the reality of priorities at the senior levels of government - and we all know some of those has nothing to do with "need" and all to do with expediency.

My problem is with Torontonians complaining that Federal and Provincial tax dollars shouldn't be kept at home as much as possible, or that Torontonians paying more taxes as a whole somehow entitles them to getting the exact same amount of money back in services.

I think most would agree that Toronto should be providing a net outflow of money to other less fortunate jurisdictions. That part is undebateable. What the rest of the country needs to recognize is that this relationship requires an understanding on the part of both sides, and not the narrow view that "Toronto has everything".

AoD

 

[unimaginative2]

No one is asking for the exact same amount back. But let's say that we cut the per-capita subsidy to the rest of the country for every man, woman, and child living in the 416 back to, say, $1400 instead of the $1800 it's at now. That money--our tax dollars all--would completely transform the city, and we would still function as a tax farm for the rest of Canada on a scale that's pretty much unparalleled in the developed world.

Why don't you find out the "tax gap" of Mississauga or York Region? I guarantee it's far higher than the 416. So what? I think it would be an extremely poor public policy move to try and examine projects based on trying to minimize redistribution. I don't think it should even be a consideration. If there's a good transit project in Toronto, it should be funded. If there's a good hospital project in Smooth Rock Falls, it should be funded too, regardless of how much tax locals are paying

Actually it is TOTALLY inappropriate, knowing that you cannot do transit planning (much less expansion) with no certainity over funding. Beyond that, it isn't like the province are blind to the fact that there is a year-to-year need for transit monies in this jurisdiction.

Which is why the TTC, year after year, gets hundreds upon hundreds of millions in provincial tax dollars. Even in the Harris era they got capital money. Is it enough? No, but that's the whole thing: you're throwing up red herrings to try and distract from my point. This isn't about whether various transit projects should get funding. It's about the logical fallacy of arguing that Toronto is somehow cheated because it pays out more in tax than it receives in services (completely leaving aside the impossibility of quantifying local benefit for spending like national defence and foreign aid).

No offense, but your sympathies differs at times markedly from the reality of priorities at the senior levels of government - and we all know some of those has nothing to do with "need" and all to do with expediency.

Okay, I'm really not sure what you're talking about. I'd be quite shocked if this surprises anybody, but I'm neither the provincial, nor the federal government. I'm an individual who has been an active supporter of additional transit funding for years, and who you attacked for something completely unrelated to my point. I support transit funding. I don't know how to be more clear. That's not what this is about.

I think most would agree that Toronto should be providing a net outflow of money to other less fortunate jurisdictions. That part is undebateable. What the rest of the country needs to recognize is that this relationship requires an understanding on the part of both sides, and not the narrow view that "Toronto has everything".

Kay, but I never said Toronto has everything. I said that Torontonians, and in particular elected officials, should stop claiming the so-called "tax gap" as a reason for more money. The projects they're asking to be funded should be strong enough on their own merits, and if they still don't get funding that's what we should be complaining about.