[M II A II R II K]

Funding the transit system we want today... with 2006’s tax rate

Read More: http://www.thegridto.com/city/politics/funding-the-transit-system-we-want-today-with-2006s-tax-rate/


For a generation of Torontonians, it’s been the question no one wanted to contemplate: How do we pay for transit? Since the 1990s, we’ve been starving the TTC, forcing it to pay 70-80 per cent of its operating expenses from the fare box (with next to no funding from the provincial or federal governments), and playing a cat-and-mouse game with one-time splurges for new construction that are sometimes scaled back or cancelled.

- Toronto’s chief planner, Jennifer Keesmaat, recently noted on Twitter that London spends three times as much per capita on transit (from all levels of government) as Toronto does, while New York City twice as much. In his book about international transportation, Straphanger, author Taras Grescoe noted that “the TTC is on its way to becoming a case study in how to quickly squander a hard-won legacy of decent transit.” Finally, however, the time to talk about funding has arrived. On Monday, Keesmaat previewed her upcoming public discussion on the subject, and on Tuesday, Metrolinx launched its public consultation on revenue sources for building new transit.

- As far as taxes go, some economists like “value added” sales taxes such as the HST because they don’t tend to slow down the economy as much as others. Higher income taxes, on the other hand, inspire people to either stop working as much or to avoid paying the taxes through accounting maneuvers. For a whole lot of reasons that Université Laval economist Stephen Gordon often details on his blog Worthwhile Canadian Initiative, value-added taxes don’t do that. Of course, sales taxes are regressive—poor people spend more of their income than rich people do, so they pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes. Gordon has pointed out that the key is to send some of the money directly back to poorer people.

- Former budget chief Shelley Carroll has suggested that a one per cent HST bump would generate about $1 billion across the GTA. By doubling that, we’d be looking at $2 billion in transit revenue for the region. We could return one-third of that directly to poor, working-class, and lower-middle class residents to offset the effects of the added strain on their budgets, and still be left with more than $1.3 billion per year to spend on transit through Metrolinx and the TTC. Spending half of that on new construction and half on operating budgets would be a massive injection of much-needed money that would help the system flourish.

.....

 

[M II A II R II K]

John Moore: The conservative case for toll roads

Read More: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/02/05/john-moore-the-conservative-case-for-toll-roads/


National Post columnist Rex Murphy is apoplectic about the possibility that Ontario’s new premier, Kathleen Wynne, might bring in road tolls. He calls tolls “an abomination†and “a shakedown,†and complains indignantly of already having paid more than his freight when it comes to the cost of roads. “Drivers already are taxed to death from the moment they take their first breath,†he writes.

- We all pay consumption taxes. What we pay them on is irrelevant. True, motorists pay extra taxes that are specific to their vehicles. And so it should be. Roads and infrastructure don’t come cheap. Land has to be appropriated, bridges and tunnels built, paving laid usually with borrowed money. Roads are repaired, lit, cleared of snow and salted. They are patrolled by police; and when motorists have accidents, ambulances, tow trucks and accident investigators respond on the public ticket.

- Depending on how you crunch the numbers, studies show that vehicle-related taxes cover from one-third to just over half the annual cost of providing for cars. The rest of the money is drawn from a government’s general revenues, including taxes paid by people who don’t even own a car. Which is why the C.D. Howe and Fraser Institutes — not exactly hotbeds of Marxist nanny-statism — both firmly support user-pay solutions.

- A sophisticated toll system not only brings in revenue to pay for better roads, it raises money for transit. “Why should I pay for something I don’t use?†motorists will ask. Because every person transferred onto a public-transit vehicle is one less car idling in front of you during rush hour. Tolls put a cost on roadway use, which means people will ration it. They will make fewer unnecessary trips and adjust their traveling hours, if possible, to avoid the highest prices. This metering means less congestion, which means users are essentially buying back some of the time they were previously wasting.

- The mindset that Toronto in particular has to overcome is the notion that because we have built a car- dependent lifestyle for ourselves, we must necessarily continue to configure our cities to accommodate them. But there simply is no way to expand vehicle volume. As Robert Moses discovered in New York City, there are only so many neighbourhoods you can demolish for highways before the city isn’t worth living in. Toronto and New York were built before cars. Los Angeles is a city built quite deliberately for cars. And even there, the model is a failure.

.....

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Road tolls are happening whether we like it or not. Get on board.

 

[gweed123]

Road tolls are happening whether we like it or not. Get on board.

I do like it, and I'm on board, haha.

The question is how many people will need to be dragged kicking and screaming into this new reality. My guess is somewhere between 33 and 39% .

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I do like it, and I'm on board, haha.

The question is how many people will need to be dragged kicking and screaming into this new reality. My guess is somewhere between 33 and 39% .

I'll personally pay for them to move to Calgary then. Oh wait there doing the same expansion.


I think it will be around 40 percent. honestly. The sun will make it worse. To be fair there has been waste. But there has been 25 years of politicking. And the voters are at fault too...they talk out of both sides of their mouth. It better not be just road tolls. We need as much per year as possible.

 

[gweed123]

I'll personally pay for them to move to Calgary then. Oh wait there doing the same expansion.


I think it will be around 40 percent. honestly. The sun will make it worse. To be fair there has been waste. But there has been 25 years of politicking. And the voters are at fault too...they talk out of both sides of their mouth. It better not be just road tolls. We need as much per year as possible.

I think it needs to be a phased approach, or else it runs the risk of all coming crashing down. Here's what I think the phasing should be:

Phase 1 (Present to ~2020):

-A 1% Sales Tax (easiest sell politically, also would raise a lot of money).
-Tolling of only the Express lanes on the 401 (again, easiest tolling sell).
-Implementation of a public option for auto insurance.


Phase 2 (~2020 to ~2025) (chosen because this is when many of the 1st and some of the 2nd wave of the Big Move projects will be coming online, thus the increase can be tied more closely to results):

-Tolling of the DVP, Gardiner, QEW (peak periods), and 400, 404, and 410 with E-C systems like the 401.
-Commercial parking space tax


All of these measures would be instituted region-wide by Metrolinx. However, local municipalities can supplement what Metrolinx is giving them by instituting things like a VRT, or a property tax addition. These are generally smaller items that can be administered at the local level without screwing with the regional economy.

 

[ssiguy2]

Although I am generally against road tolls unless it is for new infrastructure, I think most Torontonians could grin and bear it but only under certain conditions.

1} A certain percentage of the tolls ie 25% go towards the inprovement and improved maintenance and a series of HOV lanes. It would be a much easier sell to road users if they also see an improvement in the road system.

2} The money NEVER goes to the city or the province. It must go directly to Metrolinx and/or the local transit system. It is impairitive that the paying public know that this revenue is going only towards transportation improvements and not into some general slush fund. They want to know that 100% {not 99%} is going to improve their commute and not to some playground in Miss, a library in Malvern, social housing in Vaughn, or the newest downtown festival. This is what makes Vancouverites swallow their pride and accept the Translink gas taxes/fees. The money collected goes directly to Translink with no middle man and they can only spend money on transportation. Atleast Vancouverites know where the money is going.

3} Any tolls must be followed by IMMEDIATE improvement to transportation, none of this running on Toronto-time crap. As far as the populas is concerned if the city can get the bureacracy together to bring in the tolls than they can do the same for construction and improved service. They don't want to see the money flowing out of their pockets with Metrolinx then turning around and saying this or that is planned with some unknown date. No vague promises...........you want the money, we want results. Also Torontonians don't want endless environmental reviews which ussually end up having little to do with the enviornment and more to do with make-work projects. Vancouverites pay their gas taxes and tolls but they also seen real improvements in the last 15 years............Millenium Line, New Port Mann/HWY#1, Goldern Ears Bridge, Canada Line, and soon the Evergreen Line and the Expo Line capacity increase and extension and the Millenium Line ext to UBC. They don't want bureaucrats and politicians talk about progress but rather want to see progress.

4} People will want to see real accountability and projects that come in on-time and on-budget. They don't want timetables that are "flexible" or costs that are "estimates" but want real value for the dollar with true rapid transit and not some warm and fuzzy talk about "great city building" requiring stops every 3 blocks so grandma doesn't have to walk to the hairdressers.

The biggest problem with tolls in Toronto will not be getting Torontonians to accept them but rather making sure that Metrolinx spends the money efficiently, effectively, responsibly, and that the money is being spent that very day and not being banked for some project in the distant future which only their grandchildren will see. The last sounds pretty basic but Toronto was given $300 from the feds 4 years ago for Sheppard and hasn't got around to spending any of it but new plans for the city continue to come out ad nauseum which everyone knows will never get built.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think it needs to be a phased approach, or else it runs the risk of all coming crashing down. Here's what I think the phasing should be:

Phase 1 (Present to ~2020):

-A 1% Sales Tax (easiest sell politically, also would raise a lot of money).
-Tolling of only the Express lanes on the 401 (again, easiest tolling sell).
-Implementation of a public option for auto insurance.


Phase 2 (~2020 to ~2025) (chosen because this is when many of the 1st and some of the 2nd wave of the Big Move projects will be coming online, thus the increase can be tied more closely to results):

-Tolling of the DVP, Gardiner, QEW (peak periods), and 400, 404, and 410 with E-C systems like the 401.
-Commercial parking space tax


All of these measures would be instituted region-wide by Metrolinx. However, local municipalities can supplement what Metrolinx is giving them by instituting things like a VRT, or a property tax addition. These are generally smaller items that can be administered at the local level without screwing with the regional economy.

This works. It will a allow a huge infusion and give breathing room financially to complete projects and for metrolinx to take their time with planning

Although I am generally against road tolls unless it is for new infrastructure, I think most Torontonians could grin and bear it but only under certain conditions.

1} A certain percentage of the tolls ie 25% go towards the inprovement and improved maintenance and a series of HOV lanes. It would be a much easier sell to road users if they also see an improvement in the road system.

2} The money NEVER goes to the city or the province. It must go directly to Metrolinx and/or the local transit system. It is impairitive that the paying public know that this revenue is going only towards transportation improvements and not into some general slush fund. They want to know that 100% {not 99%} is going to improve their commute and not to some playground in Miss, a library in Malvern, social housing in Vaughn, or the newest downtown festival. This is what makes Vancouverites swallow their pride and accept the Translink gas taxes/fees. The money collected goes directly to Translink with no middle man and they can only spend money on transportation. Atleast Vancouverites know where the money is going.

3} Any tolls must be followed by IMMEDIATE improvement to transportation, none of this running on Toronto-time crap. As far as the populas is concerned if the city can get the bureacracy together to bring in the tolls than they can do the same for construction and improved service. They don't want to see the money flowing out of their pockets with Metrolinx then turning around and saying this or that is planned with some unknown date. No vague promises...........you want the money, we want results. Also Torontonians don't want endless environmental reviews which ussually end up having little to do with the enviornment and more to do with make-work projects. Vancouverites pay their gas taxes and tolls but they also seen real improvements in the last 15 years............Millenium Line, New Port Mann/HWY#1, Goldern Ears Bridge, Canada Line, and soon the Evergreen Line and the Expo Line capacity increase and extension and the Millenium Line ext to UBC. They don't want bureaucrats and politicians talk about progress but rather want to see progress.

4} People will want to see real accountability and projects that come in on-time and on-budget. They don't want timetables that are "flexible" or costs that are "estimates" but want real value for the dollar with true rapid transit and not some warm and fuzzy talk about "great city building" requiring stops every 3 blocks so grandma doesn't have to walk to the hairdressers.

The biggest problem with tolls in Toronto will not be getting Torontonians to accept them but rather making sure that Metrolinx spends the money efficiently, effectively, responsibly, and that the money is being spent that very day and not being banked for some project in the distant future which only their grandchildren will see. The last sounds pretty basic but Toronto was given $300 from the feds 4 years ago for Sheppard and hasn't got around to spending any of it but new plans for the city continue to come out ad nauseum which everyone knows will never get built.

I agree again. There has been A LOT of waste, and the money should go straight to Metrolinx. But the voters better wake up and smell the coffee, Toronto is the worst for congestion, at some point things have to change or people will move.

 

[sixrings]

I think it needs to be a phased approach, or else it runs the risk of all coming crashing down. Here's what I think the phasing should be:

Phase 1 (Present to ~2020):

-A 1% Sales Tax (easiest sell politically, also would raise a lot of money).
-Tolling of only the Express lanes on the 401 (again, easiest tolling sell).
-Implementation of a public option for auto insurance.


Phase 2 (~2020 to ~2025) (chosen because this is when many of the 1st and some of the 2nd wave of the Big Move projects will be coming online, thus the increase can be tied more closely to results):

-Tolling of the DVP, Gardiner, QEW (peak periods), and 400, 404, and 410 with E-C systems like the 401.
-Commercial parking space tax


All of these measures would be instituted region-wide by Metrolinx. However, local municipalities can supplement what Metrolinx is giving them by instituting things like a VRT, or a property tax addition. These are generally smaller items that can be administered at the local level without screwing with the regional economy.

I do like tolling the express lanes of the 401 because it is the easiest. However we are not building any transit that directly affects 401 drivers. For instance if we were building the Sheppard subway from downsview to stc then I can see people getting on board. But in this case they have nothing proposed to help 401 congestion.

On the other hand the DRL is a great replacement for people using the dvp. As a result it might be a easier sell to drivers that technically not only are they paying for other car drivers to take transit but they themselves have a new office commute as well. Build a full drl and toll the Gardiner as well.

 

[gweed123]

This works. It will a allow a huge infusion and give breathing room financially to complete projects and for metrolinx to take their time with planning

Exactly. It also allows the public to more closely relate the revenue tools that were implemented with the completed projects. I.e. they see where the money is going, and that it was actually spent on what they were told it would be spent on. The first wave can be completed with current funding and just a little bit extra, so the first phase of revenue tools doesn't need to be that big. When the first wave comes online, then you can implement more.

I do like tolling the express lanes of the 401 because it is the easiest. However we are not building any transit that directly affects 401 drivers. For instance if we were building the Sheppard subway from downsview to stc then I can see people getting on board. But in this case they have nothing proposed to help 401 congestion.

On the other hand the DRL is a great replacement for people using the dvp. As a result it might be a easier sell to drivers that technically not only are they paying for other car drivers to take transit but they themselves have a new office commute as well. Build a full drl and toll the Gardiner as well.

The thing with the 401 is a significant number of people in the GTA use it for at least part of their commute. People from Durham take the 401 to the DVP. People from York Region take either the 404 or the 400 onto the 401. People from Brampton take the 410 to the 401 (and then likely onto the 427). People in Mississauga take the 403 to the 401, or just the 401. Pretty much the only people who don't are in Southern Mississauga and Halton, who rely mostly on the QEW.

The primary objective of tolling the express lanes on the 401 isn't to toll certain trip patterns, it's to get people used to the idea of paying for road space. And the 401 is one of the few highways where you can toll half of it and leave the other half free, so people have the option of paying the toll or not.

What you'll likely see is the collectors crawling along during rush hour, but the express lanes going at least 40-50 km/h. For a certain group of people, paying the toll will be a smaller cost than sitting in traffic for over an hour.

The other big thing, and I can't stress this enough, is that the tolls need to be integrated with the Presto system. Why? Because then you would have a single 'fare payment' system across the entire region.

Your Presto account info would include the make, model, and license plate # of your vehicle (or vehicles). When you checked into the Express lanes, the system would scan your license plate and run it against the Presto database. If it finds you, the toll amount (preferably a slightly reduced rate) would be charged directly to your ePurse, much the way paying a fare does now.

This would have the secondary benefit of requiring drivers to sign up for a Presto card in order to get the reduced fares. The hope is that the mindset will be "well, since I already have a Presto card, I might as well try transit a couple times".

This same methodology can be used for eventually charging for GO parking.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

There are too many people that would ride the 'free' road and crawl in traffic than use the 'toll' road and travel fast

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I also do not understand why people drive from, say, Keele and Bloor or Yonge and Lawrence to the CBD. What is wrong with using the subway system?

 

[TOareaFan]

Exactly. It also allows the public to more closely relate the revenue tools that were implemented with the completed projects. I.e. they see where the money is going, and that it was actually spent on what they were told it would be spent on. The first wave can be completed with current funding and just a little bit extra, so the first phase of revenue tools doesn't need to be that big. When the first wave comes online, then you can implement more.



The thing with the 401 is a significant number of people in the GTA use it for at least part of their commute. People from Durham take the 401 to the DVP. People from York Region take either the 404 or the 400 onto the 401. People from Brampton take the 410 to the 401 (and then likely onto the 427). People in Mississauga take the 403 to the 401, or just the 401. Pretty much the only people who don't are in Southern Mississauga and Halton, who rely mostly on the QEW.[/I]

While there is a lot of sense in your idea of phasing in tolling by using the 401 as a first step....you can't help but be struck by the irony that the people who it would not capture just happen to be the commuters outside of the 416 who already have the best transit option versus driving daily.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I also do not understand why people drive from, say, Keele and Bloor or Yonge and Lawrence to the CBD. What is wrong with using the subway system?

Because they are dicks. I am one of those people... Jane and weston in my beater to U of Toronto. 10 min drive... in HEAVY traffic. Most days I'm there in 5-7 mins. Car is also faster, except rush hour. I 'm trying to stop though.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Exactly. It also allows the public to more closely relate the revenue tools that were implemented with the completed projects. I.e. they see where the money is going, and that it was actually spent on what they were told it would be spent on. The first wave can be completed with current funding and just a little bit extra, so the first phase of revenue tools doesn't need to be that big. When the first wave comes online, then you can implement more.

.

That's the idea, and when the new project come we can do without fanfare and with financial security. After this project it does not end for sure, something will need to be done from Jane, Don Mills, East Scarborough, etc. The Waterfront LRTs have to be dealt with as well.