[innsertnamehere]

Jane and weston is nowhere near a "superior" transit system. that is fine to take the car at that point right now.. But once the ECLRT opens I would suggest taking that.

my big worry with tolling part of the 401 will be that people will get too angry that it is "letting the rich get to work faster" tolling roads right now will do nothing but widen the income gap right now, as it would allow wealthier people to get to work faster but make poorer people who "can't" afford road tolls sit in traffic for much longer. I can't support road tolls for that reason I feel. We absolutely need to find a new way to bring income in for it, but it should be in an income neutral form. (I.E. 1-2% sales tax or even better, a form of dedicated income tax)

I wish it could be that only wealthly people even need to drive, and if that was the case I would support road tolls. but that is unfortunately not true and in many parts of the GTA you simply cannot survive without a car. I could quite easily see a toll on the DVP and Gardiner though, as cheap transit alternatives exist that would still allow people who could not afford the toll to move around quickly. You shouldn't toll something that doesn't have a viable alternative to it.

If anything, it should just be a single toll gate south of the 401 that you pass through. cheap to implement, and would catch the majority of DVP traffic. if people wanted to avoid it, they could just hop on the subway for $3.

 

[gweed123]

There are too many people that would ride the 'free' road and crawl in traffic than use the 'toll' road and travel fast

Then that's their prerogative. But if someone does want to avoid the congestion by paying, they'd be free to do so. I know there have been a few times where I've been time-sensitive, and I would have gladly paid to get across TO using the 401. Most of those times I ended up taking the 407.

While there is a lot of sense in your idea of phasing in tolling by using the 401 as a first step....you can't help but be struck by the irony that the people who it would not capture just happen to be the commuters outside of the 416 who already have the best transit option versus driving daily.

Well, one of those groups. The other is Durham, which has GO service on pretty much the same level as Halton, and whose main highway is the 401.

The QEW through Halton is one of the few highways in the GTA that does have a significant distance of HOV lanes, so in a sense they already have the 'speedier' option. I understand that it's not the same as a toll, but I don't think that in the 1st phase people should be 'forced' to pay a toll. The 401 works well because it is in a sense, voluntary. A toll on the QEW, barring a significant widening, would be mandatory.

That's the idea, and when the new project come we can do without fanfare and with financial security. After this project it does not end for sure, something will need to be done from Jane, Don Mills, East Scarborough, etc. The Waterfront LRTs have to be dealt with as well.

Between 2015 and 2020, selling these revenue tools is going to be significantly easier, specifically because there are a bunch of projects that will be coming online, and there are a bunch more that will be looking for funding. Again, a much clearer link between the revenue tools and the results that they will generate.

Right now, all we need is a moderate step in that direction.

 

[innsertnamehere]

correcting you to say that durhams ONLY highway is the 401. at least right now.. the 407 only cuts into the northern portion and doesn't serve an area that could ever be sercivable with transit, at least in its current state.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Between 2015 and 2020, selling these revenue tools is going to be significantly easier, specifically because there are a bunch of projects that will be coming online, and there are a bunch more that will be looking for funding. Again, a much clearer link between the revenue tools and the results that they will generate.

Right now, all we need is a moderate step in that direction.

That's right. And the public demonstratiojn and promotion will be important. That's the key. Seattle does this. It works and it stops people from complaining

correcting you to say that durhams ONLY highway is the 401. at least right now.. the 407 only cuts into the northern portion and doesn't serve an area that could ever be sercivable with transit, at least in its current state.

That's right. Brooklin, ON is too far from anything. So is port perry.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Jane and weston is nowhere near a "superior" transit system. that is fine to take the car at that point right now.. But once the ECLRT opens I would suggest taking that.

my big worry with tolling part of the 401 will be that people will get too angry that it is "letting the rich get to work faster" tolling roads right now will do nothing but widen the income gap right now, as it would allow wealthier people to get to work faster but make poorer people who "can't" afford road tolls sit in traffic for much longer. I can't support road tolls for that reason I feel. We absolutely need to find a new way to bring income in for it, but it should be in an income neutral form. (I.E. 1-2% sales tax or even better, a form of dedicated income tax)

I wish it could be that only wealthly people even need to drive, and if that was the case I would support road tolls. but that is unfortunately not true and in many parts of the GTA you simply cannot survive without a car. I could quite easily see a toll on the DVP and Gardiner though, as cheap transit alternatives exist that would still allow people who could not afford the toll to move around quickly. You shouldn't toll something that doesn't have a viable alternative to it.

If anything, it should just be a single toll gate south of the 401 that you pass through. cheap to implement, and would catch the majority of DVP traffic. if people wanted to avoid it, they could just hop on the subway for $3.

That's what I'm hoping But property values will sky rocket there imo.

 

[ssiguy2]

Like I said, I'm usually against tolls but if they were to introduce them then it must be fair.

That means not getting hit everytime you use the highway. There should be a maximum amount you pay per month using a "pass" type system. This is the same as any transit system. The person who uses the bus 20 times a month pays the same as the person who uses it 200 times a month. This would also be fair to businesses and trucking who need those highways.
If they are to toll then the monthly pass should be no more than the cost of a monthly bus pass. The tolled roads should also have extensive HOV lanes to encourage car pooling and reduce the burden on those who do car pool.

The problem Toronto will face is not convincing the general public about the need for revenues but rather it's own bureaucracy and financial incompetence. If tolls and/or gas and sales taxes are to implemented than the people who are forced to pay them have a RIGHT to get rapid transit brought in affordably {no Taj Majal stations a la Spadina} and they will want the service up and running as fast as possible. They will want their money spent wisely and get maximum bang for the buck. Most enviornmental assessment could be done in 3 months not 3 years.

They will want contributions from the feds and the GTA to access ALL potential income souces to help the building to start immediately with firm time tables and costs. They don't want to hear about "best practices", enviornmental reviews when going down an already existing road or Hydro corridor, community consultation that results in so many stops the system becomes more local than rapid, architectural gems of stations but rather efficient, user friendly,and attractive ones, lines and stations that have more to do with politics than sound transportation, and using their money for luxury liners they will not be able to afford.

If they are to be presented with these taxes then they will demand, and rightfully so, a document that presents solid timelines with solid prices.........none of this escalated costs or unexpected delays crap. They don't want to here about great city building or one size fits all technology choice a la TransitCity,

It will be Metrolinx's responsibility to make sure all of these things are done BEFORE asking for their hard earned tax dollars to do it. They will want to know what they can expect in their area of the GTA and that ALL the lines be finished within 10 years and be under construction within 18 months at the maximum as anything longer than those things will be seen as yet another tax grab where no one knows where the money is going.

 

[nfitz]

That means not getting hit everytime you use the highway. There should be a maximum amount you pay per month using a "pass" type system. This is the same as any transit system.

Isn't that backwards though? You do this with transit to encourage frequent users to use it.

Surely you want to discourage frequent highway users from using them - so the capacity is available for those that use it infrequently - which are more likely to be the people and particularly the cargo which is essential. I'm not saying there should be a penalty for frequent use - but surely there shouldn't be a discount.

 

[Electrify]

I think gweed's suggestion (think it was him) to toll the express lanes while leaving the collectors free makes the most sense at this point. Tolls might be great to get local commuters on to transit, but what about intercity travel? Hate to use this cliche, but Toronto isn't the centre of the universe. The 401 corridor is the only real corridor linking Western Ontario to Eastern. Even if a truck route from Ottawa or Quebec heading to Southwestern Ontario and the US decides to take Highway 17 to 69/400, they will still hit the northwest quadrant of the city when it reaches the 401. At best, we could hope that they cross at Sault Ste Marie, but then we would have to look at improving capacity infrastructure along Highway 17.

(That said... such a project could reduce stress on the 401, as well as help improve the economies of cities and towns along the highway. So the question shifts to asking is if Toronto and the rest of the 401 corridor has enough blood to bleed to allow for mass economic and urban growth along the 17 corridor).

 

[gweed123]

I think gweed's suggestion (think it was him) to toll the express lanes while leaving the collectors free makes the most sense at this point. Tolls might be great to get local commuters on to transit, but what about intercity travel? Hate to use this cliche, but Toronto isn't the centre of the universe. The 401 corridor is the only real corridor linking Western Ontario to Eastern. Even if a truck route from Ottawa or Quebec heading to Southwestern Ontario and the US decides to take Highway 17 to 69/400, they will still hit the northwest quadrant of the city when it reaches the 401. At best, we could hope that they cross at Sault Ste Marie, but then we would have to look at improving capacity infrastructure along Highway 17.

(That said... such a project could reduce stress on the 401, as well as help improve the economies of cities and towns along the highway. So the question shifts to asking is if Toronto and the rest of the 401 corridor has enough blood to bleed to allow for mass economic and urban growth along the 17 corridor).

The other option of course is to build the mythical 413, running from Ottawa to London. It would provide a viable bypass route of the GTHA for trucks that are 'just passing through'.

But yes, you are absolutely correct.

And the 17 widening is happening anyway, at least between North Bay and Mattawa. It's being done much in the same way that Highway 11 was widened up to North Bay.

 

[BurlOak]

I also do not understand why people drive from, say, Keele and Bloor or Yonge and Lawrence to the CBD. What is wrong with using the subway system?

To me, that is the problem with tolling the 401. People who have a real transit alternative pay no tolls. Someone who has no alternative, must pay tolls. Also, decades ago people were encouraged to live near freeways so any distance travel would be on the freeways and not on local roads. now we are encouraging traffic to take the local roads. I would just stick with a gas tax. When some improved transit options come on line, when GPS tolling becomes viable, and maybe when fuel consumption becomes significantly less, a switch to tolls can be done.

 

[BurlOak]

Like I said, I'm usually against tolls but if they were to introduce them then it must be fair.

That means not getting hit everytime you use the highway. There should be a maximum amount you pay per month using a "pass" type system. This is the same as any transit system. The person who uses the bus 20 times a month pays the same as the person who uses it 200 times a month. This would also be fair to businesses and trucking who need those highways.
If they are to toll then the monthly pass should be no more than the cost of a monthly bus pass. The tolled roads should also have extensive HOV lanes to encourage car pooling and reduce the burden on those who do car pool.

The problem Toronto will face is not convincing the general public about the need for revenues but rather it's own bureaucracy and financial incompetence. If tolls and/or gas and sales taxes are to implemented than the people who are forced to pay them have a RIGHT to get rapid transit brought in affordably {no Taj Majal stations a la Spadina} and they will want the service up and running as fast as possible. They will want their money spent wisely and get maximum bang for the buck. Most enviornmental assessment could be done in 3 months not 3 years.

They will want contributions from the feds and the GTA to access ALL potential income souces to help the building to start immediately with firm time tables and costs. They don't want to hear about "best practices", enviornmental reviews when going down an already existing road or Hydro corridor, community consultation that results in so many stops the system becomes more local than rapid, architectural gems of stations but rather efficient, user friendly,and attractive ones, lines and stations that have more to do with politics than sound transportation, and using their money for luxury liners they will not be able to afford.

If they are to be presented with these taxes then they will demand, and rightfully so, a document that presents solid timelines with solid prices.........none of this escalated costs or unexpected delays crap. They don't want to here about great city building or one size fits all technology choice a la TransitCity,

It will be Metrolinx's responsibility to make sure all of these things are done BEFORE asking for their hard earned tax dollars to do it. They will want to know what they can expect in their area of the GTA and that ALL the lines be finished within 10 years and be under construction within 18 months at the maximum as anything longer than those things will be seen as yet another tax grab where no one knows where the money is going.

Looking at the recent history of Toronto. St. Clair Streetcar came in over budget. The Spadina subway has ornate stations and tunneling through fields. The people voted for subways and the TTC (and Council) voted for Transit City LRT. Shortly thereafter, TTC Chair proposes an alternative to the Transit City.

So we are asking those in the GTA to contribute $50B, and government promises to NOT give the people what they want, they promise to build much more elaborate infrastructure than needed, they promise to change their minds and come up with frequent alternative plans, and when construction finally begins, they promise to be over budget. This is not the best position to be in when asking for funding.

 

[nfitz]

Looking at the recent history of Toronto. St. Clair Streetcar came in over budget.

Uh, no it didn't. Where are you getting this stuff? The streetcar was on budget. The road and sidwalk rebuild and the hydro work, which wasn't part of the original budget, was the budget issue.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

To me, that is the problem with tolling the 401. People who have a real transit alternative pay no tolls. Someone who has no alternative, must pay tolls. Also, decades ago people were encouraged to live near freeways so any distance travel would be on the freeways and not on local roads. now we are encouraging traffic to take the local roads. I would just stick with a gas tax. When some improved transit options come on line, when GPS tolling becomes viable, and maybe when fuel consumption becomes significantly less, a switch to tolls can be done.

Sir, a gas tax = lead balloon.

 

[gweed123]

Uh, no it didn't. Where are you getting this stuff? The streetcar was on budget. The road and sidwalk rebuild and the hydro work, which wasn't part of the original budget, was the budget issue.

And the court cases, which screwed up the timeline, also accounts for some of the budget increase.

 

[Dan416]

I very much agree that tolls are especially punitive against those of us who do not live on the Lakeshore line. I much prefer the gas tax option.