[nfitz]

Any government (particularly a minority government) would be on pretty shaky grounds to raise the taxes that ML have proposed without a vote/debate on the basis that the above covered them as "in the budget".

Oh, I assume there'd be something passed. I'm just not sure that the simple change of a sales tax rate requires a vote ... I'm not sure it doesn't either.

As for the HST...it is a harmonized tax and it is way beyond my pay scale to be able to comment if the harmonization agreement between Ontario and Ottawa required any consultation with the feds before varying (in either direction) the provincial portion of the tax.

Neither do I. I started to look at some of the legislation ... and it's not clear. I couldn't actually find the rate prescribed anywhere ... perhaps the setting of the rate requires federal legislation.

 

[rbt]

what happens now if the NDP and the Tories oppose?

Deal making, an election, or the whole thing gets canned for another 20 to 30 years.

Based on the NDP's last election platform, they might be brought around if there was a transit fare price decrease and an adjustment to corporate tax law (not the rate, but a few writeoffs may be eliminated).

 

[TOareaFan]

Deal making, an election, or the whole thing gets canned for another 20 to 30 years.

Based on the NDP's last election platform, they might be brought around if there was a transit fare price decrease and an adjustment to corporate tax law (not the rate, but a few writeoffs may be eliminated).

Based on a few conversations I had today, this might just be an issue that could galvanize Tory support. Knowing I am interested in/follow transit issues 5 different people sought me out to talk about this today. They used different words but each could be paraphrased by "how come they seem to be willing to raise money anywhere they can other than raising the fares of the people actually using the transit".

Without commenting on their "logic"......i can only imagine the outrage a decrease in fares would create

 

[innsertnamehere]

What pisses me off so much about that is that toronto transit not only has the most expensive fares in North America, but is far and away the least subsidized transit authority in North America. To suggest raising fares would be insane. Increasing a ttc fare by $0.25 would make it 30% more expensive than a NYC fare! Not to mention the fact that it costs me $20 to get downtown and back on GO currently. (Though mind you I am travelling around 35km to do so)

 

[gweed123]

What pisses me off so much about that is that toronto transit not only has the most expensive fares in North America, but is far and away the least subsidized transit authority in North America. To suggest raising fares would be insane. Increasing a ttc fare by $0.25 would make it 30% more expensive than a NYC fare! Not to mention the fact that it costs me $20 to get downtown and back on GO currently. (Though mind you I am travelling around 35km to do so)

Most expensive fare in North America? Pretty sure Ottawa's cash fare of $3.30 is higher. Or is that a stat exclusively for large cities?

 

[innsertnamehere]

I was thinking major cities with metro networks. (Though Ottawa will soon have one, it doesn't quite yet.)

 

[nfitz]

What pisses me off so much about that is that toronto transit not only has the most expensive fares in North America

Toronto doesn't even have the most expensive fares in the GTA, let alone North America!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Toronto doesn't even have the most expensive fares in the GTA, let alone North America!

Show us the stats.

 

[nfitz]

Show us the stats.

Really?

Our cash fare is $3, and tickets/Presto is $2.65. So:

Agency	Cash	Presto/Ticket
TTC	$3.00	$2.65
YRT	$3.75	$3.00
Durham	$3.00	$2.70
MiWay	$3.25	$2.70
Brampton	$3.50	$2.75
Oakville	$3.25	$2.70
Burlington	$3.25	$2.70

We seem to be the cheapest ... though perhaps Milton has us beaten on tickets. Can't say I've ever used Milton Transit ...

Outside the GTA you see some a bit cheaper. But I'm not seeing any evidence that Toronto is the most expensive in North America!

 

[GenerationW]

Well, traditionally, a budget is where you lay out how much money you need to run the province for the next year and what your financial projections for revenue and expenses are. A fairly significant increase (is a 1.6% of the annual budget significant?) outside of the budget would be unusual.

Even if introduced between budgets, I would suspect that if the two opposition parties are seriously opposed (rather than just making political hay) to these new/increased taxes that we would see a motion of non-confidence around them.

The budget shouldn't be affected at all since this would be new money that would be used specifically and entirely for transit expansion by Metrolinx rather than going into general revenues.

Though how this might play out in the Legislature is another matter. I think rbt is correct that we'll either see a deal with the NDP or an election.

Outside the GTA you see some a bit cheaper.

Hamilton's $2.55 cash fare is quite a bit cheaper. Wonder how they manage that.

 

[nfitz]

Hamilton's $2.55 cash fare is quite a bit cheaper. Wonder how they manage that.

Much lower farebox recovery. They had 2012 (fare) revenue of $47.1 million and a subsidy of $46.8 million. Toronto had 2012 fare revenue of $1,082.2 million and a subsidy of $370 million. With about 22 million riders per year, (suprisingly) HSR gets about $2 of fares per rider - about the same as Toronto.

If TTC has the same level of subsidy as HSR it would receive about $700 million a year, and fare revenue could be dropped to about $700 million, and TTC fares would be much cheaper.

The bottom line however, is that transit ridership is much lower in Hamilton that Toronto, so even with subsidizing cheaper fares transit probably costs Hamilton less per capita to subsidize than it does in Toronto. The entire transit ridership of Hamilton is less than the King and Queen streetcars combined.

 

[doady]

The bottom line however, is that transit ridership is much lower in Hamilton that Toronto, so even with subsidizing cheaper fares transit probably costs Hamilton less per capita to subsidize than it does in Toronto. The entire transit ridership of Hamilton is less than the Finch East and Finch West buses combined.

In 2008, HSR saw an average of 108,054 boardings per weekday, while 36 Finch West, 39 Finch East, and 139 Finch-Don Mills saw an average of 87,200 boardings per weekday combined.

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/9D868772-92BE-4A69-B874-42A1081726CD/0/TTRFinalReport.pdf (p.37)

 

[ssiguy2]

This stance by the NDP is not only incredibly stupid but it's also shortsighted and grossly unfair.

It is very reasonable to ask the people who receive a benefit to pay a portion of it and raising corporate taxes to pay for expansion in a province that is bleeding well paying manufacturing jobs shows an astounding lack of business sense. This stance is also unfair in the extreme and shows total contempt for every Ontarian not living in the GTA.

What they are saying is that the money should come from Queen's Park thru revenues created by corporate tax increases, in other words, general revenue. Why the hell should someone outside the GTA have to be saddled with paying all of the GTA's transit expansion costs? Toronto is already getting $16 billion..no questions asked.

How in hell can she justify raising taxes across the province in order to ensure that Toronto doesn't have to pay for any of it's transportation infrastructure? Are the small towns and cities wanted to start a transit system going to get theirs free of charge? Are the rural towns and counties that had huge swaths of King's highways downloaded to them with no way to pay for them going to get their 100% coverage? Are the other big cities like Ottawa, Kitchener, or London going to get their transit expansion plans paid for via Queen's Parks largess?.................ya, I thought not.

It may comes as a shock to her but more Ontarians still live outside the GTA than in it. Clearly she has no regard for their welfare and with policies like that she clearly has written them off as potential NDP supporters.

With a transit funding policy like this she has proven herself to be both incompetent and divisive.

 

[doady]

This stance by the NDP is not only incredibly stupid but it's also shortsighted and grossly unfair.

It is very reasonable to ask the people who receive a benefit to pay a portion of it and raising corporate taxes to pay for expansion in a province that is bleeding well paying manufacturing jobs shows an astounding lack of business sense. This stance is also unfair in the extreme and shows total contempt for every Ontarian not living in the GTA.

What they are saying is that the money should come from Queen's Park thru revenues created by corporate tax increases, in other words, general revenue. Why the hell should someone outside the GTA have to be saddled with paying all of the GTA's transit expansion costs? Toronto is already getting $16 billion..no questions asked.

How in hell can she justify raising taxes across the province in order to ensure that Toronto doesn't have to pay for any of it's transportation infrastructure? Are the small towns and cities wanted to start a transit system going to get theirs free of charge? Are the rural towns and counties that had huge swaths of King's highways downloaded to them with no way to pay for them going to get their 100% coverage? Are the other big cities like Ottawa, Kitchener, or London going to get their transit expansion plans paid for via Queen's Parks largess?.................ya, I thought not.

It may comes as a shock to her but more Ontarians still live outside the GTA than in it. Clearly she has no regard for their welfare and with policies like that she clearly has written them off as potential NDP supporters.

With a transit funding policy like this she has proven herself to be both incompetent and divisive.

Umm... the Province of Ontario should help pay for transit in Toronto, just like it does for transit for the rest of the province. A lot, if not most, of provincial revenue comes from the GTA after all. These new GTA taxes and tolls are needed but they should not absolve the province from its responsibility to help fund transit everywhere in Ontario, including the GTA. Other provincial governments contribute to transit expansion, Ontario should be no different.

 

[nfitz]

In 2008, HSR saw an average of 108,054 boardings per weekday ...

Ah, I only had the annual total linked ridership, rather than the daily unlinked ridership, and underestimated the number of transfers. I picked 2 other routes ... it's still pretty miniscule in comparison to TTC.