[MisterF]

Rob Ford has given City Manager Joe Pennachetti 2 weeks to come with transit funding options so he can build subways, subways, subways. Meanwhile, due to today's signal problems at Bloor, it took me over 2 hours to get from Don Mills to Union Station. Yay, subways?

Rob Ford is hilarious. I guess Joe Pannachetti is a magical subway fairy who can wave his wand, say a few magic words, and make subway money appear out of nowhere. Is he supposed to come up with a funding idea that nobody has ever thought of before? Given a timeline of two weeks, I'd just write a report that says "Implement the Metrolinx taxes. The end."

 

[kEiThZ]

Frankly, it looks poorly on Toronto that you even have to outline this. You admit the system is broken and the Feds because of political backlash are afraid to invest in their two largest cities. It says a lot about this city, this country that we all said was the best 2 days ago, and none of it is good.

What I find sad is that people don't necessarily understand the federalist nature of our confederation and why the provinces have so much power and therefore expect the feds to pick up the tab for everything.

It's not just the two largest cities. You think cities like Saskatoon, Ottawa, Halifax, Victoria, Winnipeg and Edmonton, etc. don't have transit needs? And thus far, they have gotten the shaft. How would you feel living in Ottawa where the city is picking up 1/3 of their LRT project and all the cost overruns, while watching the GTA get 100% of the first tranche of MO2020 funded by the province? Do you think they won't be demanding funding too? This is exactly why the feds shouldn't be involved. The program will inevitably be a mess that achieves token investments here and there and no critical mass (unlike say what they could achieve on high-speed rail for example). And exactly why they have done the right thing by reducing federal taxes and making it possible for the provinces to raise taxes and raise the funds they need.

I see absolutely no reason for example, why the province can't negotiate to raise its share of the HST. Queen's Park seems to be only interested in raising taxes regionally (which would of course totally break how the HST was designed and is managed). But they don't seem to have the cojones to raise it province-wide. Alternatively, why can't they raise income taxes and pour that money into GTA transit. Oh wait, Queen's Park doesn't want heat from the rest of the province. So they expect the feds to make cuts in the federal portfolio or raise taxes nation-wide to fund GTA transit.

I get the complaints about how much tax money leaves Toronto and how much is reinvested. But truthfully, even some of those complaints are based on a poor understanding of how the feds spend money. How much defence spending for example can be done in Toronto? Or fisheries spending? And in my books, any federal infrastructure program only makes the situation worse. It'll take money from Toronto through an increase general taxes and send back 10% of it to fund transit here. Instead of that, if the Premier and the mayor grow up and actually do their jobs you could have a funding plan that ensures 100% of all new revenues raised in the region are spent here. Of course that involves politicians who are actually competent and willing to do good. Ford is not the only incompetent by that count.

 

[rbt]

Rob Ford is hilarious. I guess Joe Pannachetti is a magical subway fairy who can wave his wand, say a few magic words, and make subway money appear out of nowhere. Is he supposed to come up with a funding idea that nobody has ever thought of before? Given a timeline of two weeks, I'd just write a report that says "Implement the Metrolinx taxes. The end."

It wouldn't take much. $1B is relatively easy for the city to find if council is actually interested in finding it.

A special 3% property tax bump that lasts for 10 years would do it. This effectively rolls back the 2% reduction (versus inflation) Ford made a couple years ago.

Bringing back the vehicle registration tax for 20 years would do it.

A small bump to land transfer taxes would probably do it.


Finding $1.5B for Gardiner, $1B for the subway, and $300M for more streetcars is going to be a bit trickier.

 

[Dan416]

I agree. The amount needed to switch over the SRT to subway versus what the province has already allocated is miniscule for a city the size of Toronto. It can find a way to pay for it. Council just needs to want to. Everyone needs to stop passing the buck.

That said, I don't agree the federal government shouldn't be involved in transit. It really should be a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

 

[rbt]

That said, I don't agree the federal government shouldn't be involved in transit. It really should be a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

Feds shouldn't be in this one. Their process for signing an actual funding agreement is very onerous and would add 2 to 3 years to the timeline of the project. If the timeline wasn't already urgent then it would be worth asking.

It certainly would be nice if Ford talked his conservative pals into making a very large contribution to a similar sized project; such as Gardiner.

 

[kEiThZ]

That said, I don't agree the federal government shouldn't be involved in transit. It really should be a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split.

That's the deal Ottawa got. And they were expected to cover 100% of all cost overruns. If Toronto had that deal for Transit City, they'd be starting at $2 billion and looking at closer to $4 billion by this point, instead of $0. Ditto for the rest of the GTA. Meanwhile, Ottawa is looking at an $800 million bill just for Phase 1. Personally, I don't see any reason why an Ottawa or London resident should vote Liberal in the next election. If I lived there today, I certainly wouldn't. This government specifically screwed them over and made clear that the GTA and Toronto were getting special deals, not available to anybody else. And that's with a premier who's actually from Ottawa.

Coming from Ottawa to my hometown, I am both ashamed and disgusted that people seem to be horrified at the thought of paying for transit expansion. In Ottawa, the city raised taxes and the debate was substantially muted compared to anything in Toronto. In Toronto, a city that's nearly 3 times bigger than Ottawa, can't even consider raising the same amount to upgrade the SRT replacement to a subway. Brutal.

 

[Adjei]

That's the deal Ottawa got. And they were expected to cover 100% of all cost overruns. If Toronto had that deal for Transit City, they'd be starting at $2 billion and looking at closer to $4 billion by this point, instead of $0. Ditto for the rest of the GTA. Meanwhile, Ottawa is looking at an $800 million bill just for Phase 1. Personally, I don't see any reason why an Ottawa or London resident should vote Liberal in the next election. If I lived there today, I certainly wouldn't. This government specifically screwed them over and made clear that the GTA and Toronto were getting special deals, not available to anybody else. And that's with a premier who's actually from Ottawa.

Coming from Ottawa to my hometown, I am both ashamed and disgusted that people seem to be horrified at the thought of paying for transit expansion. In Ottawa, the city raised taxes and the debate was substantially muted compared to anything in Toronto. In Toronto, a city that's nearly 3 times bigger than Ottawa, can't even consider raising the same amount to upgrade the SRT replacement to a subway. Brutal.

Toronto residents are cheap. They always want someone else to foot the bill and not themselves which is why they elected Rob Ford who promises free subways to everywhere. That's how deluded people here are. They were lucky McGuinty threw that 8 billion dollars at transit in the region. Lets see that happen again with a province facing huge deficits and debts. Look at Paris, they decided that they wanted to build subways in their suburbs and they found ways to raise the money themselves for it. We lack leaders in this city who will be blunt with the people and tell them the cold hard facts that we need new funding to build transit in this region. This is what other cities recognize but in Toronto we want to believe otherwise. This is why transit in this region is in the sorry state it is in.

 

[TOareaFan]

Toronto residents are cheap. They always want someone else to foot the bill and not themselves which is why they elected Rob Ford who promises free subways to everywhere. That's how deluded people here are. They were lucky McGuinty threw that 8 billion dollars at transit in the region. Lets see that happen again with a province facing huge deficits and debts. Look at Paris, they decided that they wanted to build subways in their suburbs and they found ways to raise the money themselves for it. We lack leaders in this city who will be blunt with the people and tell them the cold hard facts that we need new funding to build transit in this region. This is what other cities recognize but in Toronto we want to believe otherwise. This is why transit in this region is in the sorry state it is in.

If by "finding ways to raise the money themselves for it" you include the 25% the national government granted towards the expansion and the billions in upgrades/repairs to the existing network that the National government took over......then yes you're right....Paris, unlike Toronto, found a way to pay for their transit expansion themselves

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If by "finding ways to raise the money themselves for it" you include the 25% the national government granted towards the expansion and the billions in upgrades/repairs to the existing network that the National government took over......then yes you're right....Paris, unlike Toronto, found a way to pay for their transit expansion themselves

Clearly France prioritizes their economic activity center.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Toronto residents are cheap. They always want someone else to foot the bill and not themselves which is why they elected Rob Ford who promises free subways to everywhere. That's how deluded people here are. They were lucky McGuinty threw that 8 billion dollars at transit in the region. Lets see that happen again with a province facing huge deficits and debts. Look at Paris, they decided that they wanted to build subways in their suburbs and they found ways to raise the money themselves for it. We lack leaders in this city who will be blunt with the people and tell them the cold hard facts that we need new funding to build transit in this region. This is what other cities recognize but in Toronto we want to believe otherwise. This is why transit in this region is in the sorry state it is in.

Amen.

 

[gweed123]

That's the deal Ottawa got. And they were expected to cover 100% of all cost overruns. If Toronto had that deal for Transit City, they'd be starting at $2 billion and looking at closer to $4 billion by this point, instead of $0. Ditto for the rest of the GTA. Meanwhile, Ottawa is looking at an $800 million bill just for Phase 1. Personally, I don't see any reason why an Ottawa or London resident should vote Liberal in the next election. If I lived there today, I certainly wouldn't. This government specifically screwed them over and made clear that the GTA and Toronto were getting special deals, not available to anybody else. And that's with a premier who's actually from Ottawa.

Coming from Ottawa to my hometown, I am both ashamed and disgusted that people seem to be horrified at the thought of paying for transit expansion. In Ottawa, the city raised taxes and the debate was substantially muted compared to anything in Toronto. In Toronto, a city that's nearly 3 times bigger than Ottawa, can't even consider raising the same amount to upgrade the SRT replacement to a subway. Brutal.

I'd also like to add that:

a) Ottawa has a former Liberal Cabinet Minister as Mayor, and the current Minister of Transportation is the MPP for Ottawa-West Nepean (which happens to be my riding); and

b) City Council passed the final LRT vote unanimously. You don't even see unanimous votes in Toronto on trivial matters, let alone the single largest investment in infrastructure in the City's history.

But yes, I agree, Toronto is getting a sweetheart deal, and they're pissing it away. I don't think very many Torontonians know how good of a deal they have, especially when compared to Ottawa, Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo, and London. If the Province actually decided that everyone had to play by the same funding formula, Toronto would be screaming bloody murder.

I just hope that Metrolinx manages to lobby the Province to institute the 1% HST to transit increase Province-wide, so that Ottawa can get ~$150 million/year from it. If it's kept in place over 30 years, they could take out several billions in bonds and build the whole primary network in one go. Ottawa doesn't have the political clout to get that from the Province (heck, we can't even get our ONE LRT LINE paid for by the Province despite having the most amount of "ins" within the Provincial government that you could possibly have), but here's hoping the GTHA, and Toronto in particular, don't screw the pooch on this transit funding deal, because I'm sure there are many other municipalities with much more un-sweetheart deals that would love that HST revenue.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

But yes, I agree, Toronto is getting a sweetheart deal, and they're pissing it away. I don't think very many Torontonians know how good of a deal they have, especially when compared to Ottawa, Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo, and London. If the Province actually decided that everyone had to play by the same funding formula, Toronto would be screaming bloody murder..

Yes, it's a sweetheart deal. But we should expect nothing less for the economic capital and largest city in this country.

 

[Adjei]

If by "finding ways to raise the money themselves for it" you include the 25% the national government granted towards the expansion and the billions in upgrades/repairs to the existing network that the National government took over......then yes you're right....Paris, unlike Toronto, found a way to pay for their transit expansion themselves

Last I checked the Feds have contributed money to projects in the Toronto area including money for the under construction Spadina extension. With the Paris example, they have shown that won't shy away from using taxes or levies to build transit and this is a place with one of the world's best transit systems. If Toronto expects the Feds and Province to pay for all their transit expansion projects, then they are indeed deluded just like Ford who thinks private companies will build us subways for free. I'm also tired of this talk about how much taxes flow out of Toronto, this is not just a phenomenon with Toronto. I'm sure New York and London pay more in taxes than they receive back but yet they aren't afraid to raise revenues to build transit.

 

[kEiThZ]

If by "finding ways to raise the money themselves for it" you include the 25% the national government granted towards the expansion and the billions in upgrades/repairs to the existing network that the National government took over......then yes you're right....Paris, unlike Toronto, found a way to pay for their transit expansion themselves

I've countered this argument. The Europeans don't really have provincial governments in the same sense that we do. This is why their national governments are involved in municipal projects.

I sincerely hope that our governments don't get that messy and bloated. Ever.

In our case, the provincial government has the powers and the vacated tax room to raise the necessary funds. And it's given Toronto a better deal than even Paris got. Yet, you don't see any Torontonians willing to pony up to actually build a sound transportation network with top-up funds.

 

[kEiThZ]

Yes, it's a sweetheart deal. But we should expect nothing less for the economic capital and largest city in this country.

Why not?

I paid more in taxes for my condo in Ottawa that was assessed at half the value of my parent's house in Scarborough. And I had no issues paying even more in taxes to support transit expansion there. Most Ottawa residents didn't. If Torontonians were paying $3200 in property taxes for a 2-bedroom condo, they'd be in tears....

The Liberals will be reduced to nothing but 416 ridings if they keep this up. Torontonians may not know how great a deal the GTA got. But you can be sure the rest of the province knows they are getting screwed over.