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Last I checked the Feds have contributed money to projects in the Toronto area including money for the under construction Spadina extension. With the Paris example, they have shown that won't shy away from using taxes or levies to build transit and this is a place with one of the world's best transit systems. If Toronto expects the Feds and Province to pay for all their transit expansion projects, then they are indeed deluded just like Ford who thinks private companies will build us subways for free. I'm also tired of this talk about how much taxes flow out of Toronto, this is not just a phenomenon with Toronto. I'm sure New York and London pay more in taxes than they receive back but yet they aren't afraid to raise revenues to build transit.

Exactly. There is some truth to it. But I'm sick of the argument too. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of how federal tax dollars are collected and spent. The feds spend on federal portfolios like fisheries and defence. They don't collect federal taxes to spend on subways. Toronto is not an area where substantial federal dollars can be spent because it may not align with federal spending priorities (no room for military bases, no need for fisheries patrols, etc.)

Paris and London are also national capitals. Imagine for example all the jobs and federal spending done in Ottawa, relocated to Toronto. For better or for worse, Toronto is not Canada's capital city and that federal spending takes place in Ottawa. It's time for Toronto to get over it.
 
I'm sure New York and London pay more in taxes than they receive back but yet they aren't afraid to raise revenues to build transit.
Last I checked, most of the $10s of billions of dollars being spent on the 2nd Avenue subway and 7 Line extension in NYC was coming from the State and Feds. Also, isn't the entire £20+ billion for Crossrail1 + Crossrail2 coming from federal funds in London?
 
Why not?

I paid more in taxes for my condo in Ottawa that was assessed at half the value of my parent's house in Scarborough. And I had no issues paying even more in taxes to support transit expansion there. Most Ottawa residents didn't. If Torontonians were paying $3200 in property taxes for a 2-bedroom condo, they'd be in tears....

The Liberals will be reduced to nothing but 416 ridings if they keep this up. Torontonians may not know how great a deal the GTA got. But you can be sure the rest of the province knows they are getting screwed over.

That's part of the issue. It's cheaper to be here then most cities because of the low taxes. It's created a complacency.
 
Last I checked, most of the $10s of billions of dollars being spent on the 2nd Avenue subway and 7 Line extension in NYC was coming from the State and Feds. Also, isn't the entire £20+ billion for Crossrail1 + Crossrail2 coming from federal funds in London?

I don't know about New York but in London, 60% of the 14.8 billion pounds for the Crossrail is coming from London and businesses in London:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/about-us/funding

Imagine if Toronto and businesses here had to contribute 60% of the LRT money given by the Province..
 
Gridlock is costing Toronto up to $11 billion yearly—here’s how to fix it

Read More: http://www.canadianbusiness.com/economy/the-end-of-gridlock/

.....

Metrolinx, Ontario’s transit authority, pegged the cost for the Toronto region alone at $6 billion annually in 2008. That number was too modest. The figure could be $7.5 billion to $11 billion every year, according to new data supplied to Canadian Business by the CD Howe Institute. The higher price tag isn’t based on commutes getting worse over the past five years—although they probably have. Metrolinx’s numbers only considered the costs of gridlock, like businesses spending more to transport goods or having to pay their employees better to tolerate long commutes. But the CD Howe report also recognizes that easing gridlock would create new opportunities by increasing the size of Toronto’s talent pool and consumer base. By not acting, these lost opportunities become lost dollars from our bank accounts.

- If progress is going to be made, we need to stop looking at transit as something we pay for on a project-to-project basis and instead see it as akin to health care or education, a need that requires long-term, sustained funding. Investing in transit isn’t just about saving time—it’s about making money. Carol Wilding, president and CEO of the Toronto Region Board of Trade, says her organization’s 10,000-plus members understand the link between healthy transit and healthy bottom lines. “They consistently rank this as the top economic and competitiveness issue,†she says. People turn down jobs because “they know the cost that it’s going to have on them personally in terms of changing their commute patterns, and therefore the impact that it also has on their family life. They’re just not prepared to make that kind of investment.†Academic literature backs Wilding’s anecdotal evidence. People will spend up to 90 minutes commuting, and that’s effectively the end of a company’s talent pool, explains Benjamin Dachis, author of the new CD Howe study.

- When people start moving faster, you get a bigger consumer base, as well. “We’ve got this huge mass of people who are all able to go to a baseball game or use a subway or an airport, who are all in the same labour market,†Dachis explains. If more people could quickly reach the Rogers Centre, for example, the Blue Jays would see an increase in ticket sales. Together, these benefits add up to another $1.5 billion to $5 billion, his study concludes, in addition to the $6 billion we already knew we were losing. Though he can’t vouch for the accuracy of Metrolinx’s figure, Dachis says the costs are definitely higher than we thought. Even the feds are losing out. An improved economy would allow Ottawa to rake in more income tax—one of the ways in which transit investment offers a return to governments.

- A 2005 study in London examined housing prices after light-rail and subway lines linked previously unconnected areas of the city, and found houses within two kilometres of new stations rose in value by up to 12% more than those further away. Canadians could glean these benefits as well, but that will first require a radical shift in how transit is funded. The current method—year-to-year funding drawn from the existing tax base—is flawed. Consider Edmonton’s dilemma. The city’s proposed $1.8-billion light-rail line will likely face delays due to a $515-million funding gap, despite politicians wanting the line running by 2019. But big construction and engineering companies won’t bid on the project without secure funding, according to Edmonton’s transportation general manager, Bob Boutilier. If the project proceeds in its current state, bidding will be less competitive.

- In 2006, Stockholm introduced a congestion zone around its city centre, adding more buses and bike lines as an alternative. Drivers going through the zone had their licence plates snapped by cameras and were automatically charged. It began with a seven-month trial and a disapproval rating of 75%. But traffic fell by 22%, only to rise again at the end of the pilot project. When asked for their opinion when the trial was over, a majority of Stockholmians voted the tolls into law. Other cities have made a similar choice. New York imposes a 0.375% regional sales tax and multiple business taxes. London has a congestion charge similar to Stockholm’s; motorists driving downtown during business hours pay £10 per day. Even Los Angeles, North America’s most congested city, is ahead of Toronto. In 2008, L.A. voters backed a 30-year regional sales tax of 0.5% to fund a $40-billion transit expansion.

- Indeed, sustained revenue has myriad benefits. In both London and Madrid, predictable funding helped expand the construction sector, and because work was regular, engineers and workers became more familiar with the processes and tools used for building transit; their improved expertise boosted productivity and further drove down costs. Road tolls also reduce gridlock precisely because people would rather not deal with them, says Dachis. Building more roads, meanwhile, does little to help reduce congestion. “When you increase the capacity of something without changing the price, demand usually just fills up thatadditional capacity.â€

.....




End-of-gridlock.jpg
 
If Torontonians were paying $3200 in property taxes for a 2-bedroom condo, they'd be in tears....

I see your point, but not to nitpick but around $3000 is incredibly standard for property tax on a 2 bed condo in the core. W still have it good though compared to the other municipalities though.
 
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A bit OT, but what I would really like to know is the adjusted amount and share of total/commercial/residential taxes collected in each borough in the Metro (now City of Toronto), before CVA, after and current.

AoD
 
I've seen taxes at 1800 or less in the core.

I pay $3016 for the year for a two bed in Infinity condos, which is significantly cheaper than Maple Leaf Square or soon to be occupying Ice. Also I know people who live in various condos in TO from Liberty, CP, Yonge St Clair, Freedville, King East etc that pay around $1800 in taxes for a 1 bed. Given that assessed value is more for areas like King W, Yorkville I'd imagine them to be even more
 
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I don't know about New York but in London, 60% of the 14.8 billion pounds for the Crossrail is coming from London and businesses in London:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/about-us/funding

Imagine if Toronto and businesses here had to contribute 60% of the LRT money given by the Province..
Ah, that's interesting! I hadn't realised that Crossrail 1 was so widely funded. Presumably they'd use the same model for Crossrail 2.

Any idea what the Thameslink (which is essentially the 3rd of these types of lines) funding mechanism is?
 
I pay $3016 for the year for a two bed in Infinity condos ...
Is that just the municipal tax, or does that include the education tax, which goes to the province?

For direct comparisons, you need to remove the education tax, which for some bizarre reason is charged at the same rate for the entire province ... meaning that an average household in Toronto is paying much much much more than the average household in Kenora, despite only getting the same funding per student.
 
I see your point, but not to nitpick but around $3000 is incredibly standard for property tax on a 2 bed condo in the core. W still have it good though compared to the other municipalities though.

Except that condo in Toronto's core is worth twice what my condo 10 mins from downtown Ottawa is worth.

And that's what I'm talking about.

If you own a half million dollar condo in Toronto, and you are only paying $3000 in taxes, that's an incredible deal. It's unbelieveable therefore that Ottawa residents who already pay substantially higher property taxes didn't complain much about having to support 1/3 of their transit expansions, while Torontonians aren't willing to pony up when they have higher incomes (or they wouldn't be buying half million dollar condos) and relatively lower taxes already. How long does anybody think this situation is politically tenable before residents in the rest of the province balk at this arrangement? It's not like other municipalities don't have significant infrastructure requirements either.

Imagine what could have been accomplished if Toronto ponied up even $3 billion over the next 10 years. We'd see the Bloor-Danforth extension to STC. We'd see Finch fully completed. Sheppard East would actually reach the zoo. We'd see Eglinton go right to the airport. And we'll have started on the DRL and maybe even Yonge North. All for $300 million per year.
 
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Keithz:

Not to say that those in TO shouldn't pay more for transit expansion, but I highly doubt that the difference in property value and income scales linearly, and at the end of the day, the ability to pay probably has more to do with the latter the the former. Besides, let's not forget it isn't even downtown where there is the most resistance to paying extra, but the inner suburbs, where it's already been sold you can have your transit cake and eat it too without additional funding all the while enjoying lower amount of taxation due to CVA. There is something truly perverse about that.

AoD
 
The problem with the relationship between house prices/cost of living and income is that, often, there is no relationship.

Many professions/careers pay the same no matter where you live. So, does a government worker in Ottawa earn less than a government worker in Toronto? A minimum wage plus tip server in Ottawa probably makes the same minimum wage as one in Toronto and the tips are probably not much different. A bank branch manager in Ottawa probably makes a very similar wage to a bank branch manager in Toronto.

This table shows that the median family income in the Ontario part of Ottawa-Gatineau in 2010 was $94,700 while in Toronto it was $68,110. Now that is a very broad geographic area with different income profiles in different areas....but the gap in median incomes is also very large.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm

At the end of the day we are all well aware that Toronto has a low mill rate (lowest in the province, I think) but that the out of pocket property tax payments Toronto residents make are still as large, and often larger, than those in other communities because it is applied to a higher property valuation.

One possible (likely?) outcome if Toronto was to raise its mill rate would be a bit of flight or mini-flight to the suburbs. As the cost of in city home ownership grew it would change the balance between location and cost....if there was such a flight it would reduce the value of those homes and, in the end, the municipality may not collect that much more in actual tax dollars.
 
Is that just the municipal tax, or does that include the education tax, which goes to the province?

For direct comparisons, you need to remove the education tax, which for some bizarre reason is charged at the same rate for the entire province ... meaning that an average household in Toronto is paying much much much more than the average household in Kenora, despite only getting the same funding per student.


Good point. Ok so in that case, it's:

$2167.09 (municipal, 0.53376%) + $860.72 (education, 0.21200%) for a total of $3027.81 for 2013.

The province assesses value thought right? Regardless it's about $100K lower than what it should be (they assessed it at $406K), and as other have mentioned our mill rate are significantly lower than other GTA municipalities. To Keith's point that's a lot of extra money being left behind.
 

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