[Asterix]

PS: If Ford does get his Scarborough Subway plan, like I said earlier, Metrolinx should be disbanded, as they will have lost all credibility.

Given that Ford was very clear when he assumed office that TC was 'dead', that everything was going underground and that the Scarborough subway was his first priority, the flip side of your statement is that Ford will have to be seen to make major concessions.

Whether or not they are rational concessions is separate from the question of whether he would be willing to be seen to make concessions of that magnitude.

Can anyone really see him saying something akin to "you know, after sitting down with people who know a heck of a lot more about transit than I do, I've come to see that their proposal is a far cry better than my catchy one-liners"?

It'd take quite a wordsmith to spin anything but a Scarborough subway first and foremost to STC as an implementation of 'his' plan.

 

[gweed123]

Given that Ford was very clear when he assumed office that TC was 'dead', that everything was going underground and that the Scarborough subway was his first priority, the flip side of your statement is that Ford will have to be seen to make major concessions.

Whether or not they are rational concessions is separate from the question of whether he would be willing to be seen to make concessions of that magnitude.

Can anyone really see him saying something akin to "you know, after sitting down with people who know a heck of a lot more about transit than I do, I've come to see that their proposal is a far cry better than my catchy one-liners"?

It'd take quite a wordsmith to spin anything but a Scarborough subway first and foremost to STC as an implementation of 'his' plan.

If he were a liberal, that would be true. But let's not forget, these are Fordites he's trying to appease. Facts and reality are meaningless. "The taxpayers asked for subways, and I gave them a line from STC to Pearson along Eglinton". Nevermind the fact that the tunnel and the SRT upgrade were happening anyway, as far as they're concerned, if it happened under Ford, it was Ford's doing. Guaranteed 1/2 of Fordites didn't even know that his top transit priority was Sheppard to begin with, and even more than that probably didn't even care. He may be legitimately pissing off 5% of his voting base by backing off on Sheppard. He can make all the concessions he wants, as long as he has a tunnel or two being dug by the time the next election rolls around, and there aren't any in-median LRT projects being built.

All Ford needs is a picture of himself wearing a hardhat standing beside a TBM along Eglinton, and as far as his supporters are concerned, he delivered.

 

[nfitz]

There may not be widespread support for Ford's subway platform, but you can't help but notice the 76% saying we should build more transit underground.

No only 44% suggested ... the remainder said they should be as planned. Also note though that 62% opposed cancelling or changing the current plan if it means higher costs or
a longer wait to get new transit. And that 67% disagreed with the suggestion that we should build subways because it's what Rob Ford promised in the election, and he has amandate, even if it means stopping the projects that are underway.

Everybody's kicking up such a fuss about this, without even knowing what the alternative plan actually is.

Which is the best time to kick up a fuss. If our elected officials understand clearly that replacing 30 km of LRT with a 6 km subway in Scarborough isn't what most people want, then the alternative plan will end up looking a lot more like Transit City, but with a bit more underground and grade separated.

Perhaps a Sheppard subway extension to Victoria Park ... with LRT afterwards ... and extend the Eglinton LRT grade-separation a bit further west and east.

 

[Tewder]

Given that Ford was very clear when he assumed office that TC was 'dead', that everything was going underground and that the Scarborough subway was his first priority, the flip side of your statement is that Ford will have to be seen to make major concessions [...]

It'd take quite a wordsmith to spin anything but a Scarborough subway first and foremost to STC as an implementation of 'his' plan.

Personally I don't care if he retracts or contradicts everything he's said so far, as long as the plan is a good one. It's not about political points. The election is over and there is a long way to go before the next one. At the end of the day we haven't seen a plan yet, and Ford wouldn't be the first candidate running for election that has thrown statements out or outlined 'ideals' that aren't followed through on once in office.

Absolutely the mayor should be able to take initiative on large scale transit projects. Ford's people will produce a new plan that can be input into the city and TTC detailed planning process and then right as they are starting construction in 3 and a bit years, we can have a new mayor come in who should be able to take initiative on a large scale transit project and have his people come up with a new 'improved' plan. That sounds like an effective and responsible way to run municipal operations.

This would be incredibly frustrating and inefficient to be sure... but, you're sort of assuming that Ford and crew will be as effective/ineffective on transit as Miller (who had two terms to work on transit), or that the political climate, public interest and other mitigating circumstances will remain the same... which is obviously not likely to be the case.

... but again, why not wait and see? We'll all be up in arms here if what he comes up with misses the mark.

 

[gweed123]

No only 44% suggested ... the remainder said they should be as planned. Also note though that 62% opposed cancelling or changing the current plan if it means higher costs or
a longer wait to get new transit. And that 67% disagreed with the suggestion that we should build subways because it's what Rob Ford promised in the election, and he has amandate, even if it means stopping the projects that are underway.

You can slice those stats pretty much any way you want to support or deminish a position. Stats are bullshit, 65% of all people know that.

Which is the best time to kick up a fuss. If our elected officials understand clearly that replacing 30 km of LRT with a 6 km subway in Scarborough isn't what most people want, then the alternative plan will end up looking a lot more like Transit City, but with a bit more underground and grade separated.

True, to a certain point. Although I think at this point arguing for the status quo isn't going to get you anywhere. If anything, advocacy efforts should be targetted to trying to rally for specific improvements to the plan. This is why I support the campaign to save the Eglinton LRT. By advocating for individual projects, you are more likely to affect the end decision than if you campaign to save TC as a whole.

Perhaps a Sheppard subway extension to Victoria Park ... with LRT afterwards ... and extend the Eglinton LRT grade-separation a bit further west and east.

I'd be perfectly happy with that. Although I'd trade LRT on Sheppard for BRT, in order to extend Eglinton even further west in the 1st phase. But yes, we're pretty much on the same wavelength with that. At this point, what I'd like to see for Eglinton is a grade-separated LRT (or ICTS, but that's Metrolinx' choice) from Jane to STC, with a grade-separated extension to Pearson via the Richview corridor in Phase 2.

 

[Asterix]

Ford wouldn't be the first candidate running for election that has thrown statements out or outlined 'ideals' that aren't followed through on once in office.

But given his personality, is it something you could see him specifically doing? Or more likely carrying on, come hell or high water because he "has a mandate"?

you're sort of assuming that Ford and crew will be as effective/ineffective on transit as Miller (who had two terms to work on transit),

Just curious as to what your definition of "ineffective" is. Hasn't recent years seen a huge increase in ridership (partly aided by the Ridership Growth Strategy), significant purchases of new surface and subway vehicles and arranging an $8 billion network expansion plan?

Of course since any mayor should be able to take the initiative on a large transit plan, much of that progress can be negated in subsequent terms.

or that the political climate, public interest and other mitigating circumstances will remain the same... which is obviously not likely to be the case.

True. Any bets on whether a Hudak government would be interested in opening up the treasury to fund transit in Toronto given the upcoming campaign will be fought on the huge provincial deficit and who will be better at reigning in spending?

 

[Tewder]

But given his personality, is it something you could see him specifically doing? Or more likely carrying on, come hell or high water because he "has a mandate"?

I don't really 'read' personalities so i'll leave that to others. Who knows? Who even knows to what degree Lord Ford is actually the power behind his own throne...

Just curious as to what your definition of "ineffective" is. Hasn't recent years seen a huge increase in ridership (partly aided by the Ridership Growth Strategy), significant purchases of new surface and subway vehicles and arranging an $8 billion network expansion plan?

To be honest I don't think that is a stellar accomplishment on mass transit in a city the size of Toronto and given the length of his tenure. Not all his fault, to be sure, but which is why I mentioned shifting political climates, economies etc.

True. Any bets on whether a Hudak government would be interested in opening up the treasury to fund transit in Toronto given the upcoming campaign will be fought on the huge provincial deficit and who will be better at reigning in spending?

Well you seem to have the crystal ball so we'll leave this to you. In the meantime most of us will wait and see and what happens.

 

[Dan416]

LOL lovely response Tewder

 

[W. K. Lis]

I have an answer. The dynamic is precisely the same as every other iteration including in the Miller years. Quelle surprise!




You can back up this number? 85% of the citizens of Toronto are opposed to subways and love Transit City?

Check out the Leger survey from January, 2011 at this link (PDF).

Stop the light-rail lines and build subways instead: 15%
Keep the light-rail lines, but move more of them underground: 44%
Keep the light-rail lines as currently planned: 32%

 

[Dan416]

Check out the Leger survey from January, 2011 at this link (PDF).

So basically a majority of people do not want Transit City as is. A majority (59%) favour either moving more of TC underground or stopping it and building subways instead, while only 32% want Transit City as is (I guess the other 9% just didn't have an opinion one way or another).

 

[EnviroTO]

.. or 76% don't have an idealogical issue with light-rail as some subway fanboys claim.

 

[drum118]

What do you expect from the Car Folks, as they don't want any type of transit getting in their way while driving.

Now put the question out as to the true cost of building subway vs BRT/LRT on the surface will be and you will see a different number.

You can add all the lines you want in place of X, but all three types of service must be the same for each line knowning BRT will never fill the bill from day one. You need to come up with cost of each line to come up with a tax rate%. You need to show a schedule what the tax% would mean on the various levels of what a house cost today.

I expect to see some surprising results if the residents voted on a format like this.

Question:
As a resident of Toronto, which of the following transit lines would you like to see built that would help to move riders around the city faster, free up gride lock, can play a factor in higher transit fare due to operation cost, help development and to get people out of their cars? You can vote for any combination of type of service knowning the fact that the taxe% each of lines will be added as a total to your tax bill on a yearly base for the next X years.

Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a subway built on X1 for $X? Yes or no
Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a subway built on X2 for $X? Yes or no
Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a subway built on X3 for $X? Yes or no
Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a subway built on X4 for $X? Yes or no and so on

Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a BRT built on X1 for $X? Yes or no
Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a BRT built on X2 for $X? Yes or no
Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a BRT built on X3 for $X? Yes or no
Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a BRT built on X4 for $X? Yes or no

Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a LRT built on X for $X? Yes or no
Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a LRT built on X for $X? Yes or no
Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a LRT built on X for $X? Yes or no
Are you prepared to have your property taxes go up by X% if you voted to have a LRT built on X for $X? Yes or no

Your Total tax increase is:____________________ for the number of X lines.

 

[gweed123]

.. or 76% don't have an idealogical issue with light-rail as some subway fanboys claim.

As I said before, you can slice those numbers anyway you want to either prove or disprove your point. So PLEASE stop using them as a justification for your own biases!

If anything, those stats show that the public doesn't have a realistic idea of what they want. Period.

 

[Dan416]

I think Torontonians intrinsically know that surface transit isn't fast. They've all ridden the streetcar and know how brutally, painfully slow it is. Same with buses. Clearly putting transit underground is what leads to high quality transit.

 

[nfitz]

I think Torontonians intrinsically know that surface transit isn't fast. They've all ridden the streetcar and know how brutally, painfully slow it is. Same with buses. Clearly putting transit underground is what leads to high quality transit.

Not sure what fast has to do with underground. The transit lines with the fastest average speed in Toronto are not underground.