[nfitz]

Ooh..thats harsh, considering its all BS.

I have no idea if it is or not.

But it's hard to imagine that there wouldn't be horse-trading going on. The folks in question would never get anything from another candidates ... well perhaps Thomson ... but I don't think anyone thinks she might win. They might as well sell themselves to ...

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

If that's the best you can do, then I rest my case. You are of course entitled to your opinion. Let's see whether Toronto will warm up to Mr. Smitherman. I somehow doubt it, but stranger things have happened before.

i don't agree with everything smitherman did as minister of health but do you honestly believe that his faults are comparative to taking 10 grand from you? or putting a gun to your head?

if you're going to be ridiculous and exaggerate to the extreme, i'm surprised that you didn't compare rob ford's bigotry to racial extermination and say "Now imagine this führer wants my vote to become the mayor of Toronto, what would you like me to do?"

and stop pretending you're a libertarian. you already made your true nature known by your own remarks.

 

[archanfel]

Really. I suppose you better work harder getting your own water, building your own roads, generating, maintaining and delievering your own electricity, etc.

AoD

I don't need to do any of those. I just need to buy them from producers. And as long as there's money to be made, there will be producers and there will be multiple producers competing for my money.

Now, if your point is that we need government doing public works, I don't disagree. There are certain things that are more suitable for public work. (Hospital being one of those, but health insurance is not) As I said, CPP is a good example of a well run government program. The trick is you need to keep the program in professionals' hand, maintain accountability and maintain profitability (at least breakeven). Even if our society wants a welfare program, I would argue it should operate like a charitable organizations and be accountable to donors.

 

[archanfel]

i don't agree with everything smitherman did as minister of health but do you honestly believe that his faults are comparative to taking 10 grand from you? or putting a gun to your head?

if you're going to be ridiculous and exaggerate to the extreme, i'm surprised that you didn't compare rob ford's bigotry to racial extermination and say "Now imagine this führer wants my vote to become the mayor of Toronto, what would you like me to do?"

and stop pretending you're a libertarian. you already made your true nature known by your own remarks.

I'd say 10 grant is actually an understatement and if I refused to pay my taxes? Yes, a gun would literally be pointed to my head. You tell me the difference.

If both of us agreed that Mr. Ford is a "führer", then I would tell you not to vote for him. Even if I don't think he is a "führer", but I can't convince you otherwise, I would still tell you not to vote for him because I can't force my view onto you. However, that shouldn't make it more likely for either of us to vote for Mr. Smitherman since he should be judged by his own merits.

So now libertarian is a good word now? Didn't somebody say it's just a nice name for sociopath? So what's my true nature? How does that differ from a libertarian view?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I'd say 10 grant is actually an understatement and if I refused to pay my taxes? Yes, a gun would literally be pointed to my head. You tell me the difference.

If both of us agreed that Mr. Ford is a "führer", then I would tell you not to vote for him. Even if I don't think he is a "führer", but I can't convince you otherwise, I would still tell you not to vote for him because I can't force my view onto you. However, that shouldn't make it more likely for either of us to vote for Mr. Smitherman since he should be judged by his own merits.

So now libertarian is a good word now? Didn't somebody say it's just a nice name for sociopath? So what's my true nature? How does that differ from a libertarian view?

so lets get this straight, smitherman forced you to pay 10 grand and also held a gun literally to your head?

you're not a libertarian. if you were a libertarian you wouldn't make the arguments you did. your true nature is that you are a homophobe. you are angered that sex changes are covered by ohip but not eye exams. if you were simply a libertarian and had nothing against gays, you wouldn't have made the argument that you did. you would have made a different argument.

 

[MetroMan]

The rumour mill is saying that Smitherman and Thomson have made an agreement where she will continue in the race for another week and if her numbers don't grow, she will drop out and endorse Smitherman instead. I think that it could help him bounce back. She also seems to have been teaming up with him in the last debates. If a candidate(s) drop out, the whole dynamic of the race would change I think.

 

[adma]

"Progressive Toronto" not having a clearer understanding of what Toronto is really like is a function of liberals having their heads up their collective ass for too long (metaphorically speaking).

This reminds me of the Pauline Kael line after Nixon was overwhelmingly re-elected when she said something like,"How does he keep winning? I don't know anyone who voted for him."

Some of you need to get out more.

And actually, re UT, remember that over the years, UT's been heavily defined by a focus on stuff like architectural and urban design. Yet those who are rah-rah Ford etc in threads like this are noticeably *not* participants in that realm of discussion. And probably with good reason--they'd probably be shredded and tarred as philistines, and they're out of their depth there anyway.

Like, I've whimsically commented elsewhere that Ford'd be to mayors what this is to skyscrapers. Or maybe let's take a nearer case in point: the Niagara Falls Hilton.

Now, imagine if you will, an architectural competition for some really prominent and important building in Toronto, where the participants included international figureheads like Foster, Piano, Nouvel, etc, maybe a few Canadian noteworthies like Saucier & Perrotte--and a Niagara Falls Hilton sort of design.

And imagine if the jury wasn't one of "expert peers", but of the mass populace. Almost like a televised "Toronto's Next Big Building" series.

And imagine if all the noteworthies cancelled themselves out, leaving, as the landslide winner...the Niagara Falls Hilton-type design.

Imagine the city planners and design panels jaws dropping to the ground.

That, metaphorically, is the Rob Ford mania in a nutshell.

 

[Torontovibe]

The rumour mill is saying that Smitherman and Thomson have made an agreement where she will continue in the race for another week and if her numbers don't grow, she will drop out and endorse Smitherman instead. I think that it could help him bounce back. She also seems to have been teaming up with him in the last debates. If a candidate(s) drop out, the whole dynamic of the race would change I think.

We have to hope something will change. Right now it's just a joke.

 

[Towered]

The rumour mill is saying that Smitherman and Thomson have made an agreement where she will continue in the race for another week and if her numbers don't grow, she will drop out and endorse Smitherman instead. I think that it could help him bounce back. She also seems to have been teaming up with him in the last debates. If a candidate(s) drop out, the whole dynamic of the race would change I think.

One of the leading stories on CFTO news tonight was about swirling rumours that behind the scenes there's a genuine anti-Ford coalition in the making. They had a few clips of candidates commenting on this after tonight's debate, and both Smitherman and Pantalone said it was an "interesting" and "possible" scenario. Needless to say, I'm elated that they're open to the idea, and it finally gives me hope that maybe, just maybe our fair city won't wind up entering a dark age under a mayorship by that Ford dullard. I hope that they work something out soon so that all the undecideds like myself will finally be able to back a sensible alternative.

Here's what I hope winds up happening: Pantalone drops out and throws his support behind Smitherman, which would take him to roughly the same level as Ford, based on the latest poll. Add in Thompson for a few more percentage points for a small lead, but then add a ton of undecideds like myself and you've got a comfortable victory for Smitherman. Make it happen, guys - my vote anxiously awaits.

 

[SlickFranky]

archanfel:
I'm not sure how you envision yourself, but you're not a libertarian. That much is clear.
You do want your taxes to pay for some things....things that you use...like roads and hospitals. Wake-up call...that's what we all want! But since we all want and use different services at different levels, we've agreed to pool our money to cover all the costs. We, the normal people, appreciate the benefits we receive from the taxes we pay, and swallow the cost of the services we don't personally use, as they assist in the betterment of society as a whole.

For example, I will never get cervical cancer. Never..it's not even possible..I don't have a cervix. So, should I
A) get a HPV vaccine refund?
B) force teenage girls to pay the full cost of the research and production of the vaccine?
C) pay my taxes and be happy to be living in a world where the women I love don't die from a preventable diseases?

If you chose either A or B, you're either a sociopath, a sexist prick, or a capitalist ass-hat...none of which are welcome in a civilized political discussion. Go start a blog.
If you chose C, congratulations, you're a socialist! Welcome to UT!
If you tried to rationalize some imaginary fourth option where a non-profit corporation provides this service, I pity you. Enjoy your life of being on the wrong side of every argument, just for the sake of hearing your own voice.

 

[urbandreamer]

And actually, re UT, remember that over the years, UT's been heavily defined by a focus on stuff like architectural and urban design. Yet those who are rah-rah Ford etc in threads like this are noticeably *not* participants in that realm of discussion. And probably with good reason--they'd probably be shredded and tarred as philistines, and they're out of their depth there anyway.

Like, I've whimsically commented elsewhere that Ford'd be to mayors what this is to skyscrapers. Or maybe let's take a nearer case in point: the Niagara Falls Hilton.

Now, imagine if you will, an architectural competition for some really prominent and important building in Toronto, where the participants included international figureheads like Foster, Piano, Nouvel, etc, maybe a few Canadian noteworthies like Saucier & Perrotte--and a Niagara Falls Hilton sort of design.

And imagine if the jury wasn't one of "expert peers", but of the mass populace. Almost like a televised "Toronto's Next Big Building" series.

And imagine if all the noteworthies cancelled themselves out, leaving, as the landslide winner...the Niagara Falls Hilton-type design.

Imagine the city planners and design panels jaws dropping to the ground.

That, metaphorically, is the Rob Ford mania in a nutshell.

Err, wrong.

That would be what all elected politicians would be to architecture--elected by the masses. It would be fringe Candidates who'd perhaps represent the aA's of the world.

 

[GenerationW]

The rumour mill is saying that Smitherman and Thomson have made an agreement where she will continue in the race for another week and if her numbers don't grow, she will drop out and endorse Smitherman instead. I think that it could help him bounce back. She also seems to have been teaming up with him in the last debates. If a candidate(s) drop out, the whole dynamic of the race would change I think.

This isn't a political convention, and anyone "dropping out" should have done so before the cut-off date. Doing it now while still having one's name on the ballot makes a mockery of this election.

 

[archanfel]

so lets get this straight, smitherman forced you to pay 10 grand and also held a gun literally to your head?

you're not a libertarian. if you were a libertarian you wouldn't make the arguments you did. your true nature is that you are a homophobe. you are angered that sex changes are covered by ohip but not eye exams. if you were simply a libertarian and had nothing against gays, you wouldn't have made the argument that you did. you would have made a different argument.

What would happen if you don't pay your taxes? You think the government wouldn't come after you with guns? Ever heard of a crime called tax evasion?

No, Smitherman didn't do it personally. However, he was a government official and I hold him responsible for the policies of the government.

If you define homophobe this way, then I'd say the vast majority of the people in this province would be homophobic according to you.

 

[archanfel]

archanfel:
I'm not sure how you envision yourself, but you're not a libertarian. That much is clear.
You do want your taxes to pay for some things....things that you use...like roads and hospitals. Wake-up call...that's what we all want! But since we all want and use different services at different levels, we've agreed to pool our money to cover all the costs. We, the normal people, appreciate the benefits we receive from the taxes we pay, and swallow the cost of the services we don't personally use, as they assist in the betterment of society as a whole.

For example, I will never get cervical cancer. Never..it's not even possible..I don't have a cervix. So, should I
A) get a HPV vaccine refund?
B) force teenage girls to pay the full cost of the research and production of the vaccine?
C) pay my taxes and be happy to be living in a world where the women I love don't die from a preventable diseases?

If you chose either A or B, you're either a sociopath, a sexist prick, or a capitalist ass-hat...none of which are welcome in a civilized political discussion. Go start a blog.
If you chose C, congratulations, you're a socialist! Welcome to UT!
If you tried to rationalize some imaginary fourth option where a non-profit corporation provides this service, I pity you. Enjoy your life of being on the wrong side of every argument, just for the sake of hearing your own voice.

So now capitalist is a bad word now? Wow. Sorry, a libertarian is a capitalist by definition. Sure, libertarianism tolerate communal co-operatives, but certainly not in the hand of a coercive state. And I surely hope UT is not just a gathering ground for socialists and I don't believe it is.

 

[picard102]

The rumour mill is saying that Smitherman and Thomson have made an agreement where she will continue in the race for another week and if her numbers don't grow, she will drop out and endorse Smitherman instead. I think that it could help him bounce back. She also seems to have been teaming up with him in the last debates. If a candidate(s) drop out, the whole dynamic of the race would change I think.

I think anyone who has already decided to vote for her will still end up putting their mark next to her name on the ballot regardless of her "quiting".