[duper]

It doesn't matter what he says about that anymore since the damage is already done. As the candidate (this forum aside) with the highest negatives, it's unlikely Smitherman can pass Ford. Everyone behind him knows it, which is why no one wants to "drop out" and be a kingmaker. They all believe they can be the king.

The worst nightmare of the "anyone but Ford" movement has come true: Smitherman being in second place.

Yes. Smitherman's detractors would love his record to be about E-health, E-Health, E-health -- but that's not the entirety of his record. Far from it.

It's precisely the reason why so many Tories support him. He can get things done. He's the best middle-of-the-road candidate who offers reason and proven leadership and consensus building. Let's be reasonable, and take the whole of his record. If he takes responsibility for his share of it, then he's owed the respect for the hospitals built, the waste cut, and his record as Toronto's best MPP.

 

[archanfel]

Yes. Smitherman's detractors would love his record to be about E-health, E-Health, E-health -- but that's not the entirety of his record. Far from it.

It's precisely the reason why so many Tories support him. He can get things done. He's the best middle-of-the-road candidate who offers reason and proven leadership and consensus building. Let's be reasonable, and take the whole of his record. If he takes responsibility for his share of it, then he's owed the respect for the hospitals built, the waste cut, and his record as Toronto's best MPP.

Sure he can get things done, he wasted that $1 billion pretty fast. I can too. Actually, come to think of it, it's not easy at all. The crab legs at Mandarine buffet cost $30. Let's say I go there three times a day, 365 days a year. It would take me about 30,000 years to spend that $1 billion. Yet George Smitherman somehow found a way to spend it in several short years. Now that takes leadership and consensus building. Exactly what we need in city hall.

Seriously, if George Smitherman resigned from his post and spoke up for David Caplan, I would at least acknowledge his integrity if not his competence. He was going to resign to run for the mayor anyway. Instead, he hung his colleague (if not his friend) out to dry. David Caplan took the fall for him and HE is Toronto's best MPP? I am sorry, I wouldn't even have him as my friend, let alone my mayor.

 

[King of Kensington]

Yes. Smitherman's detractors would love his record to be about E-health, E-Health, E-health -- but that's not the entirety of his record. Far from it.

It's precisely the reason why so many Tories support him. He can get things done. He's the best middle-of-the-road candidate who offers reason and proven leadership and consensus building. Let's be reasonable, and take the whole of his record. If he takes responsibility for his share of it, then he's owed the respect for the hospitals built, the waste cut, and his record as Toronto's best MPP.

If one wants a right-wing agenda of privatization, a tax freeze, hiring more cops, attacks on unions, etc., Smitherman is the more rational choice. For all of the bombastic rhetoric of Ford and his supporters, he won't be able to get his agenda through at Council. Smitherman would be more successful.

 

[archanfel]

If one wants a right-wing agenda of privatization, a tax freeze, hiring more cops, attacks on unions, etc., Smitherman is the more rational choice. For all of the bombastic rhetoric of Ford and his supporters, he won't be able to get his agenda through at Council. Smitherman would be more successful.

What tax has George Smitherman ever frozen? Didn't the Liberal promise specifically that they were not going to raise taxes? Yet why I still got this thing called "Health Premium" on my tax form? If I was the health minister, I would have resigned right there in protest.

Now George Smitherman is promising he is going to freeze taxes, when have I heard that before? Oh, I am sure the property tax would not increase. Instead, we would have an infrastructure premium in six months. And we probably have to pay for union members' share too.

 

[adma]

I see it this way: those who loathe Smitherman see him as a Mayor Daley Sr. figure. Those who embrace him see him as a Mayor Daley Jr. figure. Democratic Convention '68 vs "Millennium Park, man!"

 

[King of Kensington]

Meanwhile, Rob Ford would be able to accomplish almost nothing. Better to get most of what you want with Smitherman than nothing with Ford.

I expect a Ford mayoralty to be like that of Larry O'Brien in Ottawa, who is a rightwing fanatic who hasn't been able to accomplish a thing.

 

[Torontovibe]

Sure he can get things done, he wasted that $1 billion pretty fast. I can too. Actually, come to think of it, it's not easy at all. The crab legs at Mandarine buffet cost $30. Let's say I go there three times a day, 365 days a year. It would take me about 30,000 years to spend that $1 billion. Yet George Smitherman somehow found a way to spend it in several short years. Now that takes leadership and consensus building. Exactly what we need in city hall.

Seriously, if George Smitherman resigned from his post and spoke up for David Caplan, I would at least acknowledge his integrity if not his competence. He was going to resign to run for the mayor anyway. Instead, he hung his colleague (if not his friend) out to dry. David Caplan took the fall for him and HE is Toronto's best MPP? I am sorry, I wouldn't even have him as my friend, let alone my mayor.

You can't say 1 billion was wasted on EHealth. Some of the money might not have been well spent but EHealth itself, is a pretty important thing, which I found out recently when I had a health scare. The doctor, in emergency, asked me important questions that I could not answer. (I wasn't planning a trip to hospital) Within minutes, he had the information, thanks to EHealth. It even had the new medication I was taking but could not remember the name of. That is very important information in emergencies. I really didn't know the implications of EHealth, until the doctor told me how important it was, that day.

Contrast that to just a few years ago when I had a very serious operation and it took over 2 weeks for my doctor to get my health info.

Let's say you are hit by a car, in serious condition and unconscious. The doctor can now search to see what past health issues you had, if you have any allergies to medication or what medication you are taking, that could conflict with other medications. One day EHealth could save your life. That is not a waste of a billion dollars. It obviously could have been done for a lower cost but it still would have been pretty expensive, as all medical files had to be put online. Can you imagine how labour intensive that is? It costs serious money.

It's funny, you never hear anybody talking about how important EHealth is, you only hear the criticism.

 

[archanfel]

Meanwhile, Rob Ford would be able to accomplish almost nothing. Better to get most of what you want with Smitherman than nothing with Ford.

I expect a Ford mayoralty to be like that of Larry O'Brien in Ottawa, who is a rightwing fanatic who hasn't been able to accomplish a thing.

Oh, I fear much worse. If Rob Ford is going to accomplish nothing, then I would definitely vote for him. There's nothing wrong with a government that accomplishes nothing.

There was this prime minister in ancient China. All he did was drinking and feasting. The emperor was angry and ask him to explain himself. The prime minister asked, "Do you think you are wiser than your father?" The emperor said, "No, I am not". The prime minister asked again, "Do you think I am wiser than my predecessor?" The emperor said "To be honest, I don't think you are either". The prime minister smiled, "If you are not wiser than your father and I am not wiser than my predecessor, then we should let the country continue on the path laid out by them. Anything we change would only cause more tax burden on the people, who are already tired after long wars and massive public works. We should let them rest and then our country would recover."

I am afraid Rob Ford would not be as subtle. He will change things even if he can't find things to change just to prove he is a waste fighter. I don't think he will raise our tax burden, but he surely can create turmoils in the city. I am not sure whether it would be for the better or for the worse. That's why I am not still undecided and might just sit out the election.

 

[GraphicMatt]

But "doing nothing" inevitably means taxes must increase, doesn't it? Unless society decides it's cool with raising poverty levels (esp. among seniors) and old bridges falling down.

 

[Torontovibe]

Oh, I fear much worse. If Rob Ford is going to accomplish nothing, then I would definitely vote for him. There's nothing wrong with a government that accomplishes nothing.

There was this prime minister in ancient China. All he did was drinking and feasting. The emperor was angry and ask him to explain himself. The prime minister asked, "Do you think you are wiser than your father?" The emperor said, "No, I am not". The prime minister asked again, "Do you think I am wiser than my predecessor?" The emperor said "To be honest, I don't think you are either". The prime minister smiled, "If you are not wiser than your father and I am not wiser than my predecessor, then we should let the country continue on the path laid out by them. Anything we change would only cause more tax burden on the people, who are already tired after long wars and massive public works. We should let them rest and then our country would recover."

I am afraid Rob Ford would not be as subtle. He will change things even if he can't find things to change just to prove he is a waste fighter. I don't think he will raise our tax burden, but he surely can create turmoils in the city. I am not sure whether it would be for the better or for the worse. That's why I am not still undecided and might just sit out the election.

First of all, nothing stays the same. Cities are always changing and even if Ford doesn't change a thing, the city will still grow and change. If traffic is not dealt with, if public transit is left to fester and new services are not designed to serve the growing population, life in this city could nosedive. Our public transit system cannot bear larger crowds without new subways or LRTs. So even though policies might stay the same, the condition of the city wont. We already have the worst traffic in North America! (and you want inaction?)

Another thing is debt. Rob Ford won't raise the tax burden? He claims he will cut all kinds of revenue streams for the city. His cuts to the "Gravy Train" might not add up to much. Now let's say after Ford keeps all his promises, things just don't add up. (we all know he is not good on facts & figures) If it's true, what I have read on here, that legally, the city cannot run up a deficit, then what else can Ford do but raise taxes, if we end up short on cash? (and blame someone else for giving him the wrong figures) It's very possible that if Ford miscalculates, that he will be forced to raise taxes.

Mind you, I am not an expert at finance, so it's just a theory. Do I have a valid point?

 

[spider]

It seems that RF will be our new Mayor, not a scary thought as we are constantly reminded that his vote is only 1 of 45. He will accomplish his program in exactly he same way that Miller did by assembling and rewarding a block of like thinkers to vote with him. This may not be that tough if a lot of the Millerites are swept from office in the Ford tsunami and others like Pantalone, Moscoe, Giambrone etc have retired.

In order to attract this support RF will have to put some water in his wine and move a little to the left of his current position in many areas and this is an acceptable compromise. I look forward to such a developement because although I agree almost 100% with RF's message I would prefer to see a less confrontational messenger.

 

[adma]

I expect a Ford mayoralty to be like that of Larry O'Brien in Ottawa, who is a rightwing fanatic who hasn't been able to accomplish a thing.

Not sure; as embarrassments go, O'Brien is more akin to the cannibal-potted last term of Lastman, or if Rocco Rossi actually ran the city the way he's campaigning to run the city. Whereas Ford's more like midway btw/O'Brien and wouldbe Saskatoon mayor Jim Pankiw.

Also--at least O'Brien, unlike Ford, actually represents a lot of politically plausible geography--to the south and west, it's very solid Tory territory, provincially and federally speaking. That's the result of Ottawa-Carleton megacitying; it'd be akin to Toronto's city limits extending all the way up to Lake Simcoe...

 

[King of Kensington]

Yes, the "megacity" of Ottawa is ridiculous.

 

[EnviroTO]

Now let's say after Ford keeps all his promises, things just don't add up. (we all know he is not good on facts & figures) If it's true, what I have read on here, that legally, the city cannot run up a deficit, then what else can Ford do but raise taxes, if we end up short on cash? (and blame someone else for giving him the wrong figures) It's very possible that if Ford miscalculates, that he will be forced to raise taxes.

You are forgetting the city's assets. If he sells Toronto Hydro, other city properties, new street cars, a small park to two, reduces maintenance, etc. that will give him money to run an artificially balanced budget.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

You are forgetting the city's assets. If he sells Toronto Hydro, other city properties, new street cars, a small park to two, reduces maintenance, etc. that will give him money to run an artificially balanced budget.

and then when the next guy gets elected and those revenue streams don't exist anymore, the new guy gets blamed for not being able to keep the books in good condition and everybody feels nostalgic for a ford mayoralty, when the budget was balanced. the new guy will get blamed just like obama gets blamed for his inheritance from bush.

pretty smart and pretty evil. who cares about the next guy or the future of the city? it's all about my term.