[isittimetomoveyet]

Why, and I mean WHY, would the province set up this agency and then NOT support the policy recommendations it makes.

If we are going to get a full Eglinton subway, a finished Sheppard line, and a downtown relief line, WITH express service, I will support any toll that they wave in front of my face. Bring it.

I just hope the province doesn't cop out, and take the lesser of the two. Its about time we got a world class transit system in these parts, and the quality of life improvements for many people more than justifies the price tag.

I wonder what this grandiose scheme would cost?

 

[Disparishun]

If we are going to get a full Eglinton subway, a finished Sheppard line, and a downtown relief line, WITH express service, I will support any toll that they wave in front of my face. Bring it.

Amen, except for the express service. And that's only because I'd like to see that part of things squared away with whatever plans there are for GO -- having express TTC routes alongside a still-lame-duck GO train system would scream white elephant a bit too loudly imho.

 

[JasonParis]

Besides, Yonge is probably the only line that would warrant "express" service in our lifetimes anyway. And not to say that we'll get it either.

 

[drum118]

I said back in 2003? when McGuinty started to talk about transit for the GTA that he better get a checkbook out and be prepared to write a check for $4 Billion a year for the next 20 years to come up with a transit system to meet people needs.

That $80 Billion is up to $100B today.

This would give us 130km of subway expansion, EMU service of 15 minute on all rail lines in the GTA, 500km of LRT, 200km of BRT, service on must bus routes under 15 minutes. Preferable to be 5 minutes or less on heavy travel routes.

24 hour service 7 days a week on 60% of transit routes.

Flat fare to use the system at a lower cost than today.

Trains would be able to travel at 180km within 300km radius of Toronto.

This is without any support from the Fed's. If the Fed's like to pony up, then they need to come up with $40 Billion plus to cover their share.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Besides, Yonge is probably the only line that would warrant "express" service in our lifetimes anyway. And not to say that we'll get it either.

Logically the YUS line should stop at Steeles Avenue. A Yonge Express Line between Bernard Terminal and Queens Quay would prevent overcrowding on YUS but more importantly wouldn't subject someone travelling from northern Richmond Hill to 90+ mins commuting to downtown.

The Yonge Express Line would have stations every 500m (Clark, John-Centre, Royal Orchard, Langstaff, Bantry, Carville/16th, Weldrick, Major Mackenzie, Crosby, Elgin Mills, Bernard) throughout 905's Yonge St.

Within Toronto stations would exist wherever there's a subway interchange- Sheppard, Eglinton [future], Bloor, Dundas or Queen [future], and Union.

A local appendage on the southern end could serve the new waterfront communities, either turning east to the East Bayfront/West Don Lands or west to Exhibition.

having express TTC routes alongside a still-lame-duck GO train system would scream white elephant a bit too loudly imho.

Um, the TTC is for local 416; the GO is for the outlying suburbs. Do you think it's fair to people just boarding at Kipling wanting Kennedy to sit on the train for nearly a hour through 32 agonizing stops when an express alternative can cut that by two-thirds ?

 

[RedRocket191]

I said back in 2003? when McGuinty started to talk about transit for the GTA that he better get a checkbook out and be prepared to write a check for $4 Billion a year for the next 20 years to come up with a transit system to meet people needs.

That $80 Billion is up to $100B today.

This would give us 130km of subway expansion, EMU service of 15 minute on all rail lines in the GTA, 500km of LRT, 200km of BRT, service on must bus routes under 15 minutes. Preferable to be 5 minutes or less on heavy travel routes.

24 hour service 7 days a week on 60% of transit routes.

Flat fare to use the system at a lower cost than today.

Trains would be able to travel at 180km within 300km radius of Toronto.

This is without any support from the Fed's. If the Fed's like to pony up, then they need to come up with $40 Billion plus to cover their share.

Add 90% of population within 10 minutes walk of transit stop and you'll get my vote.

 

[drum118]

Besides, Yonge is probably the only line that would warrant "express" service in our lifetimes anyway. And not to say that we'll get it either.

I think you would be surprise at the number of riders an express train would attract on any subway line in the GTA once built.

If riders knew they could get from one end of the city to the other end in haft the time of a BD line, you would find a lot of people getting out of their cars and not have to fight the traffic to use this express service.

Yonge would be Finch, Sheppard, Eglinton, (Summerhill for GO) Bloor, Dundas, Queen, King and Union. RHC would be added as well Steeles once the line goes north. Once this happens, Finch could lose express service once the Steele station comes on line since the current ridership load would be transfer to it then.

BD would be Kipling, Jane, (Keele) Dundas W, Dufferin, Spadina, St George, Yonge, (Boardview) (Pape) Victoria and Kennedy.

University-Spadina would be local from Union to Bloor. (Dupont for GO), Eglinton, (Yorkdale) Downsview, Hwy 407 and Vaughan would be express stops. I'm sure ppl will say York should be there.

Let the naming begin.

 

[drum118]

Add 90% of population within 10 minutes walk of transit stop and you'll get my vote.

Sad part, only 60% could see service within 5 minute walk let alone 10 minutes due to poor density and poor road systems. Road grid will be a real problem.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

^ Interesting express stop choices. I left out King because it seemed redundant with Quuen and Union so close by. As for Finch/Steeles I skipped over those because alot of Finch's relevance is merely due to being the northernmost, which would completely see a downturn in passenger influx as 905ers board from within the 905.

Your BD Express perfect! I'd switch Vic park to Main Street though because it serves more surface routes plus has proximity to Danforth GO. Coxwell should be added in too.

I don't see any relevance to a University-Spadina Express because the stations currently are widely-spaced apart north of Queen's Park and only moderately trafficked.

 

[drum118]

Logically the YUS line should stop at Steeles Avenue. A Yonge Express Line between Bernard Terminal and Queens Quay would prevent overcrowding on YUS but more importantly wouldn't subject someone travelling from northern Richmond Hill to 90+ mins commuting to downtown.

The Yonge Express Line would have stations every 500m (Clark, John-Centre, Royal Orchard, Langstaff, Bantry, Carville/16th, Weldrick, Major Mackenzie, Crosby, Elgin Mills, Bernard) throughout 905's Yonge St.

Within Toronto stations would exist wherever there's a subway interchange- Sheppard, Eglinton [future], Bloor, Dundas or Queen [future], and Union.

A local appendage on the southern end could serve the new waterfront communities, either turning east to the East Bayfront/West Don Lands or west to Exhibition.



Um, the TTC is for local 416; the GO is for the outlying suburbs. Do you think it's fair to people just boarding at Kipling wanting Kennedy to sit on the train for nearly a hour through 32 agonizing stops when an express alternative can cut that by two-thirds ?

I see you see the Yonge line going further north than RHC like I do.

I see the Spadina/Jane, Yonge, Victoria/Woodbine and Markham line going north to at least Elgin Mills.

The Yonge express stops would be Bernard, Richmond Hill and then RHC. Have no problem with local stop location as noted. Need 2 type of service.

As for TTC comments, it could be the Georgetown line that could be used by TTC LRT system. Other that place, there is no place TTC could operate express service next to GO. The only other place could be the proposed Crosstown Line, but goes no where near any TTC lines in a straight line.

I would like to see the Yonge Express line run down to Queens Quay. Taking it south of Union will be costly as you will have to deal with the water table 100%, but the ridership demand during the summer support the need for it. Even once the Waterfront is redeveloped.

Taking it east as proposed will be costly and it will out weight the ridership demand load in the first place. To carry the plan ridership for the Waterfront, headway would have be every 30 minutes and there is no one place to support that load in the first place. Another Chester type stations down there. Current ridership plan for this area is 10,000 riders at peak time, with 2,000 for off peak. Can be carry on an LRT systems with no problem. Headway is to be every 5-10 until the area is built up using one of the new LRT's to be order. A second car can be added as well reducing the headway to 90 seconds.

I agree with your comment on the BD as I have done this point to point too many time and it's a long ride.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'll post many thoughts in one post rather than smaller thoughts in many posts.

I'm glad that Metrolinx policy will actually explore subway options...unlike the retarded and offensive Transfer City plan. However, the "aggressive" approach could be *too* aggressive: by saying "let's! build! subways! everywhere!" it risks being dismissed/attacked. I also hope that old subway/transit plans aren't just dredged up and reused as is...most of them date from eras when 905 population was a tiny fraction of what it was now, and all of them pre-date the current Official Plan

Unimaginative2 is exactly right; the 'one mode to rule them all' approach has to end and every project needs to be studied not just on a corridor basis, but on a regional basis, taking a look at redevelopment, at how many people might go out of their way to take a subway, if traffic is bad enough that regular bus service is longer viable, etc., etc. Politicians are still going to meddle, but that's absolutely no excuse for not exploring all the options...if UT forumers can crunch ridership numbers and make maps and conjure up convincing arguments for all kinds of transit routes and modes, "professionals" being paid real money to do the same should be considering a cornucopia of options, not dismissing them as impossible or "too expensive" without even bothering to study them (as Soberman just did with the RT reno).

That $80 Billion is up to $100B today. This would give us 130km of subway expansion, EMU service of 15 minute on all rail lines in the GTA, 500km of LRT, 200km of BRT, service on must bus routes under 15 minutes. Preferable to be 5 minutes or less on heavy travel routes.

At first glance, this seems like extreme overkill - if every major/concession road in the city is upgraded to subways and streetcars, the only bus routes left in the city will be ones like Silver Hills - but maybe it's not overkill. If the Avenues plan takes off, and if the population keeps growing, and if downtown stays at least moderately healthy, and if gas/car costs explode, etc., Toronto is definitely the kind of city where all of these lines would be well-used. As others have said, nowhere else in the world is there such a gap between the willingness of Torontonians to take transit and the amount of investment in the system. Plans as massive as yours are not needed now, but if we don't start building parts of it now, we'll be screwed in 50 or 80 years. Just not your Markham line! That'll never be needed

Add 90% of population within 10 minutes walk of transit stop and you'll get my vote.

If we're not at 90% already, the GTA must be very close. The problem is such a stat isn't useful if the "transit" that's a 10 minute walk away is a lousy bus route. Unless you mean "rapid transit" stop...which would be unaffordable anywhere other than Madrid unless "rapid" means regular Viva routes on all 905 arterials.

Logically the YUS line should stop at Steeles Avenue. A Yonge Express Line between Bernard Terminal and Queens Quay would prevent overcrowding on YUS but more importantly wouldn't subject someone travelling from northern Richmond Hill to 90+ mins commuting to downtown.

Um, the TTC is for local 416; the GO is for the outlying suburbs. Do you think it's fair to people just boarding at Kipling wanting Kennedy to sit on the train for nearly a hour through 32 agonizing stops when an express alternative can cut that by two-thirds

As for Finch/Steeles I skipped over those because alot of Finch's relevance is merely due to being the northernmost, which would completely see a downturn in passenger influx as 905ers board from within the 905.

90 minutes? It wouldn't take 90 minutes to get from Union to Bradford if the Yonge line went to Simcoe Region. As you say, if people beyond the 407 demand express lines, they can take the GO trains that already exist.

Kipling-Kennedy trips will ideally be made on improved GO lines. And since no one wants to go precisely from Kipling to Kennedy but from and to random points beyond each subway terminus, these long trips are even more suited for GO.

Finch's ridership would drop, yes, but it'd still be over 50,000 even after YRT leaves. Anyway, I'm not feeling the need for a Yonge express route...the trip from Langstaff to Union would only be like 32 minutes, maybe 35 including waiting for the train, dwelling at Eglinton, etc.

 

[drum118]

^ Interesting express stop choices. I left out King because it seemed redundant with Quuen and Union so close by. As for Finch/Steeles I skipped over those because alot of Finch's relevance is merely due to being the northernmost, which would completely see a downturn in passenger influx as 905ers board from within the 905.

Your BD Express perfect! I'd switch Vic park to Main Street though because it serves more surface routes plus has proximity to Danforth GO. Coxwell should be added in too.

I don't see any relevance to a University-Spadina Express because the stations currently are widely-spaced apart north of Queen's Park and only moderately trafficked.

King was a devil do or not because what it service.

As for the U-S station, I'm looking down the road when this section gets redeveloped as well to the north. It doesn't support the need for express service today.

As for Coxwell, that depends on what happens to the Don Mill line location. That is why I have (Boardview) as this seems to where TTC wants it to go to at this time. Again it is ridership demand. Victoria out weight Main on ridership outside routes. GO has little impact on the BD line in the first place. Warden is a tossup also.

Once the Yonge line goes north, Steeles will have to be a stop because of huge ridership point it will have like Finch has today. Finch will loose 70% of the current ridership once Steeles comes on line and that why I said Finch express stop could be removed. Then, the extension will happen before any express lines gets built leaving Finch out of the picture at that time.

 

[drum118]

I'll post many thoughts in one post rather than smaller thoughts in many posts.

Originally Posted by drum118 View Post
That $80 Billion is up to $100B today. This would give us 130km of subway expansion, EMU service of 15 minute on all rail lines in the GTA, 500km of LRT, 200km of BRT, service on must bus routes under 15 minutes. Preferable to be 5 minutes or less on heavy travel routes
======================================================
At first glance, this seems like extreme overkill - if every major/concession road in the city is upgraded to subways and streetcars, the only bus routes left in the city will be ones like Silver Hills - but maybe it's not overkill. If the Avenues plan takes off, and if the population keeps growing, and if downtown stays at least moderately healthy, and if gas/car costs explode, etc., Toronto is definitely the kind of city where all of these lines would be well-used. As others have said, nowhere else in the world is there such a gap between the willingness of Torontonians to take transit and the amount of investment in the system. Plans as massive as yours are not needed now, but if we don't start building parts of it now, we'll be screwed in 50 or 80 years.

My figure is not only for 416, but also for 905, 519 as well other parts of Ontario. Need high speed rail to Niagara Fall, Windsors, Kingston and Ottawa. Rail corridors will have to be upgrade to allow 2 rails lines separate from CN/CP/VIA for GO/Metrolinx service. There are other location outside of 416 that will required LRT, BRT and subway that would be connecting to 416 let alone other cities.

I see a number of new subway lines for 416 that goes against TTC thinking as well for LRT's lines. There also extension to existing ones and each ends of them will end up in 905.

We need to start now to think big with a vision to the future that may not happen in our life time, otherwise we will be choking ourselves to death. Doing what I see will be a huge investment in our trade sector as well an employment generator for the next 20 years plus.

Oil is going to get short in demand in the coming years to the point it to raise to the $150-$200 mark by 2010 as noted back in the late 80's.

I see a subway on Queen looping up Victoria/Woodbine to Elgin Mills in the 905 for the east and looping up Jane St to Elgin Mills in the west for 905.

Eglinton line goes from Pickering to Sq One in Mississauga by the Airport.

The BD will end up At Sq One to the West and to Markham Rd or (?) and Elgin Mills.

The Sheppard Line will run from the Airport to Pickering.

The Yonge line goes north to Elgin Mills.

The Spadina line will connect with the Jane line north.

There is a X lines running from the 4 corners of the city.

Steele. Finch, Dufferin, Queensway, St Clair, Kennedy, Keele, Islington, Lawrence just to name a few streets would have LRT's 100%. When I looked at LRT's for 416 a few years ago, I saw $7 billion needed to build this LRT network just for 416 let along going out into the 905. Added in the cost of new carhouses and LRT's to that figure. I said TTC would need 700 LRT's system wide and 5 carhouses and that about $5 billion.

Between LRT's and Subways, I was looking at close to $30-$40b. Start adding in GO upgrade to more tracks, equipment, service, more service for all transit systems as well equipment, it was getting up there.

I asked last summer for $2.5B as an extension to Move2020 just to added more service and buses to the existing fleet's of ALL systems in the GTAH area as well operating cost for this extra service to help to meet today needs let alone the next few years.

You add this to that figure and it gets up there.

I don't see 416 not been part of the big picture as it will play a huge roll how transit will work for EveryOne, not just the 416.

Converting GO to EMU service will not happen overnight and will take years to convert the system 100%. Line by line will have to be done with both CN/CP getting on board to allow this. The overhead will have to be high enough to allow for over height cars that roam the systems today.

 

[Disparishun]

Um, the TTC is for local 416; the GO is for the outlying suburbs. Do you think it's fair to people just boarding at Kipling wanting Kennedy to sit on the train for nearly a hour through 32 agonizing stops when an express alternative can cut that by two-thirds ?

You're confusing silly rules that exist now with ideas about what should be.

The TTC isn't just for the local 416 -- it runs routes into 905 -- but, more importantly, that style of unintegrated system is exactly the problem. No need to encourage it. In particular, why on Earth would we want trains already stopping at multiple, and distant, points within 416 not to allow people to get on and off there? Uf GO can get them from Kipling to Kennedy by cutting their trip by two-thirds and not making them sit through 32 agonizing stops, then we need a fare system, frequency, and system integration that will do that. Continuing to erect a shrine to arbitrary lines at the expense of white elephants is not particularly useful.

Case in point: the Richmond Hill line. How would it make any sense to run a Yonge express subway alongside an express GO train on almost exactly the same route -- even if it's a route with its problems (no Bloor collection)? Similarly, why would you want to prevent people commuting between Union and, say, somewhere on the stubway from expressing it up to Oriole and transferring?

Maybe a TTC Yonge Express makes sense, sure. In which case, though, scrap GO Richmond Hill.

 

[RedRocket191]

You're confusing silly rules that exist now with ideas about what should be.

You've hit the nail on the head.

We have the opportunity here to re-write the rules that govern the very nature of the transit network.

We don't have to dream within the framework anymore.