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Exactly! At least here them out and see what they have to offer. We're talking about MGM who might know a thing or two about entertainment and drawing crowds to big cities. It would be quite foolish for councillors to reject a $2-6 billion dollar project which as they say only 10% of the complex being comprised of gaming facilities. Toronto is the construction capital "darling" of the world right now and we should take advantage while we can and are able to! Other cities would be salivating at the prospect of investment on such a grand scale.
 
There's an MGM Grand in Detroit. Despite its proximity to Toronto you don't hear much about it. So there's no guarranty an operator like MGM will draw hoards of tourists to Toronto.

I also wonder if this proposed mega project ("hotels, restaurants, spas and convention facilities") would draw the ire of local businesses (hotels, restaurants, spas, convention facilities, performance venues and shops) who might fear that their business will be taken away by a casino resort.

While there's no question the Fords' eyes are lighting up at the thought of casinos, resorts, hotels, restaurants, monorails, ferris wheels, etc. (and particularly the multi-billion dollar price tag--remember the highly touted billion dollar Woodbine Live project that Rob Ford brags about being his accomplishment?), does Toronto really want to swim with those fishes? Do we want to let those kinds of developers come in and take over the Portlands, or Ontario Place, for instance? Do we want to be Atlantic City on Lake Ontario? Or flailing Detroit, which has some four casinos in the area, in a vain attempt to stave off decline?

And who is going to profit more from a casino: the casino operator or the city and its inhabitants?
 
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MadMax said:
Exactly! At least here them out and see what they have to offer. We're talking about MGM who might know a thing or two about entertainment and drawing crowds to big cities. It would be quite foolish for councillors to reject a $2-6 billion dollar project which as they say only 10% of the complex being comprised of gaming facilities. Toronto is the construction capital "darling" of the world right now and we should take advantage while we can and are able to! Other cities would be salivating at the prospect of investment on such a grand scale.
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Right, at the same time I do see the other side. Stop and think about this for a second; The fact they come out and specifically mention that potentially only 10% of the space needs to be for the casino it self speaks magnitudes toward the 'casino product' does it not ? In a negative light of course.

Now having said all that, I'm sure Toronto residents who want to gamble problem make their way out to casino's elsewhere so by not having one on Toronto proper doesn't really resolve any of the socio-economic impacts does it ?
 
canmark said:
There's an MGM Grand in Detroit. Despite its proximity to Toronto you don't hear much about it. So there's a chance a casino could be much ado about very little.

I also wonder if this proposed mega project ("hotels, restaurants, spas and convention facilities") would draw the ire of local businesses (hotels, restaurants, spas, convention facilities, performance venues and shops) who might fear that their business will be taken away by a casino resort.

While there's no question the Fords' eyes are lighting up at the thought of casinos, resorts, hotels, restaurants, monorails, ferris wheels, etc. (and particularly the multi-billion dollar price tage), does Toronto really want to swim with those fishes? Do we want to let those kinds of developers come in and take over the Portlands, or Ontario Place, for instance? Do we want to be Atlantic City on Lake Ontario? Or flailing Detroit, which has some four casinos in the area, in a vail attempt to stave off decline?

And who is going to profit more from a casino: the casino operator or the city and its inhabitants?
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Why make the comparisons to other cities that are in completely different scenarios then Toronto. It's simple, just about every large sucesfully city in Canada has a casino; It doesn't seem as if its impacted them much at all? I agree likely in a postive or negative way.

I don't think a casino on its own right will give Toronto a lot. But, if could be used to kick start the redevelopment of an area i.e. Ontario place / Portlands / Etobicoke. It's really the ancillary benefits that we are after here.

I guarantee you that's what other municipalities are thinking (i.e. Markham / Mississauga), the Casino on its own is worthless, its everything else that comes with it.
 
I would stop thinking 'derelict' Detroit and start thinking 'prosperous' Toronto. You're comparing apples to oranges here. I'm sure MGM has done their research and are trying ti garner support based on residents views hence the quip about 10% gaming facility. The fact of the matter is the ancilliary benefits from restaurants, hotels, theatres, spas, would create thousands of jobs for the city proper. Casino jobs are extremely well paid, I know that for a fact. It would be foolish to ignore such job growth for the residents of our city. I don't think the project will bring the ire of local busineses to the proposed areas, where are they now?
 
MadMax said:
I would stop thinking 'derelict' Detroit and start thinking 'prosperous' Toronto. You're comparing apples to oranges here. I'm sure MGM has done their research and are trying ti garner support based on residents views hence the quip about 10% gaming facility. The fact of the matter is the ancilliary benefits from restaurants, hotels, theatres, spas, would create thousands of jobs for the city proper. Casino jobs are extremely well paid, I know that for a fact. It would be foolish to ignore such job growth for the residents of our city. I don't think the project will bring the ire of local busineses to the proposed areas, where are they now?
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A casino resort, as proposed by MGM is mostly self-contained and has little benefit to the surrounding shops and businesses. If we are to build a casino, we should do it like Montreal has and stick it somewhere where it's isolated.

I think it could work at Ontario Place, if MGM in return works with the city to spruce up the public realm around Lakeshore and on the waterfront.
 
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It has been rumoured that the Metro Convention Centre might be sold and then redeveloped. Since MGM is interested in having a convention centre as part of their development, perhaps this would be an ideal location. Downtown in the entertainment district (future home tomost of the new housing construction), near mass transit, the expressway, the CN Tower and the new aquarium.
 
MTCC South might be a good site for a standalone casino (though even then it's a tad small), but I can't see how they can redevelop MTCC without eating into the conference floorspace, unless the rail corridor gets decked and/or inclusion of other properties.

AoD
 
With Toronto's downtown condo boom, it has brought back diverse people living in the downtown core. Will desirability to live close to work and entertainment be effected by a mega casino resort on the waterfront? If we look at Atlantic City, we can find that there was increase in crime when it opened its city to casinos. Crime grew from 100.6 per 1000 peoples in 1977 to 353.7 in 1984. Atlantic City in 1977 was rated the most violent crime cities in the U.S. The crime also affected neighbouring municipalities as well, such as Ventor which is adjacent to Atlantic City rose from 51.4 per 1000 people to 62.6 in 1977. Crime is what drove residents out to suburbs in the 1980s in Toronto. If Toronto plans to have its casino, the rest of the GTA will feel its effects.

http://www.futuretoronto.ca/2012/04/casino-in-toronto-is-it-good-idea.html
 
Wouldn't it be more useful to look at a Canadian example of what the impact of a singular casino on crime rates is? Besides, what is the general trend of crime rates between 1977 to 1984 in the US and say, NYC?

AoD
 
taal said:
I guarantee you that's what other municipalities are thinking (i.e. Markham / Mississauga), the Casino on its own is worthless, its everything else that comes with it.
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Has anyone other than the province stated that Mississauga and Markham and "others" have an interest? Is it possible that the province is "playing" Toronto with the "threat" of locating outside, but near, the city?
 
TOareafan:

They can state anything, and it might even be true - but investors for a serious entertainment casino "plex" will probably demand a central location, so in effect it will be they who will be calling the shots.

AoD
 
Better be careful as I'm sure MarkhamVIP will jump all over you :)


Yes for a fact they have stated they're interested. I'm not sure about Mississauga actually but I'm sure about Markham.

One can argue the location is relatively central and has a GO train along with a new BRT all along Hi-way 7.

I think location wise it's OK actually. Along with VCC and potentially MCC.


I think Toronto will fight hard for this though, well some councilors and the mayor at the very least.


I didn't think this would be a private venture so I'm not sure what OLG thinks about MGM's involvement here, would they welcome that ? One would this so yes.
 
taal said:
I think Toronto will fight hard for this though, well some councilors and the mayor at the very least.

I didn't think this would be a private venture so I'm not sure what OLG thinks about MGM's involvement here, would they welcome that ? One would this so yes.
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http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1161181--montreal-casino-blessing-or-blight

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1161263--do-casinos-drive-up-the-crime-rate

A couple of Star stories that I don't think have been linked yet. Neither gives a definitive answer on the issue, but it's revelatory (although whether about gambling or The Star's trying to slant the issue, I don't know) that (a) they went to the casino at four in the morning to interview folks and (b) there were folks there to be interviewed, throwing coins in the slots.

My biggest issue, I have to admit, is my personal bias against slots. I don't think they're fun, the people playing them don't look like they're having fun, and I saw some friends putting fortunes into them when they had the video versions in bars in Alberta when I was growing up. So... I think I'm starting to move into the 'no casino' camp. The idea we need MORE five star hotels or MORE live theatre seems dubious at best. The casino on its own is just a different way for the gov't to fleece revenue from the flock. I'd rather we didn't have to be fleeced, by lowering expenditures at the margin.

I don't think Toronto will fight too hard for this, frankly. The Fords might like it, but I'm betting that MGM takes one look at the Portlands and says we want to put a casino on the CNE/Ontario Place/Entertainment District/Harbourfront/Bremner, not out in the boondocks. And then the Fords have a choice: do we fight for this even though our buddies won't make a dime and the socialists will be killing us, or do we fight tooth and nail to convert the Convention Centre into a casino? My bet is they won't be able to stomach the fight.
 
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