[japrologue]

perhaps, entertainment district (if it can be fitted) or somewhere west, e.g. CNE
5-10 % sounds fair. we need more nightlife activities in tdot, regardless of the crime rate or other negative influences

 

[gristle]

we need more nightlife activities in tdot, regardless of the crime rate or other negative influences

Regardless of the crime rate or other negative influences? Care to elaborate?

 

[coolcanadian]

I just found something very interesting that can be compared to our possible resort complex.

Resorts World Miami.

I accidentally stumbled upon this, and I think it is of great relevance to our situation.

The proposal is for a $3 billion resort complex on prime waterfront land in Downtown Miami.

Resorts World Miami will combine iconic architecture, world class dining and entertainment and luxury hotels and residences.

The casino will take up a maximum of 10% of the entire development. Sound familiar?

Resorts World Miami will boost confidence in Florida's economy, creating 15,000 direct and indirect construction jobs and 30,000 permanent positions on an ongoing basis, attracting more inbound investment, and substantially increasing the tax base for the city, county and state.

The towers sit atop an 8-story podium where guests can immerse themselves in a double-story, 250,000 square foot luxury retail galleria; more than 50 restaurants, lounges, bars and nightclubs; a high-tech multimedia entertainment area showcasing the music and culture of Florida and South America; and 700,000 square feet of convention and meeting space which includes a 200,000 square foot column-free ballroom, the largest in the United States. A casino will be included if Florida's legislature and governor approve Destination Resort legislation.

Here is a photo of what is proposed:

Here is a video:

[video=youtube;wfnLzgNi3VQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfnLzgNi3VQ&[/video]

There are many similarities and differences to the two situations.

They are both multi billion dollar projects that include less than 10% gaming space.

However, our budget is potentially two times more, and our casino will only take up 5% of the space.

They both are to be built in a central downtown location, along the waterfront.

They both will include resorts, shopping, restaurants, shows, condos (knowing Toronto i would't be surprised, even though there has been no word on a condos yet for us) etc.

It has been said that Toronto already has luxury hotels, shopping, shows, restaurants, etc.

So does Miami. That doesn't mean a project like this shouldn't be built! It just ads to the diversity.

Mimai, like Toronto, has its fair share of tourist attractions. However, you cannot say that a project like this would not increase tourism.

Miami also has casinos in its surrounding towns. Hollywood, FL (near Miami) has a Hard Rock, which could be compared to Niagara, Rama, or Montreal Casino. Yeah, this project will likely take business away from the Hard Rock in Hollywood, but it is on an entire different level, as would the Toronto complex be.

Miami is also different than Toronto In many ways. It is one of the worst run cities in America. They are almost broke, and can't even finish started transit projects.

We do not know exactly what to expect here until we see our proposal, but I think this is comparable.

I do not think you can compare what we are getting to anything in Vegas. Vegas is a casino city. Toronto is completely different. The developers know that.

I think we have come to associate the word "casino" with a negative outlook. I think anyone who thinks a project like this would harm the city is crazy.


With a $6 billion possibility, this is the kind of thing to expect.

 

[Markham VIP]

Will a major resort and casino steal business away from local establishments?
Downtown Toronto is already developed. This major monstrosity of a casino resort would suck the economic life out of the surrounding area.
Those resorts are meant to keep people in....not let them spend their cash outside the resort grounds.

 

[taal]

Will a major resort and casino steal business away from local establishments?
Downtown Toronto is already developed. This major monstrosity of a casino resort would suck the economic life out of the surrounding area.
Those resorts are meant to keep people in....not let them spend their cash outside the resort grounds.

Why would you want it in Markham if it would ruin the downtown?

 

[Lenser]

Absolutely true. They are self-referential entities. Fly/drive to the fab-ola gambling spot, stay on the premises, spend on the premises, then check out and go home. No spending out of that zone - not for hard core gamblers, anyway. It's about convenience and centralization of amenities. It's an enclosed entity. Not sure just how much in the way of economic benefits really extend beyond the property line of these extravaganzas.

 

[coolcanadian]

I would have to disagree. When my family goes to Vegas (I'm 15 btw), we do most of the stuff outside the hotel.

This will add shows, amenities, hotels. The casino will be a casino, but it is something that ant found in Toronto anyway.

If we stay with the attitude that adding nicer shopping, hotels and shows is bad because it will take business away from the other hotels, shops, and shows, then we will never get anywhere.

 

[coolcanadian]

Absolutely true. They are self-referential entities. Fly/drive to the fab-ola gambling spot, stay on the premises, spend on the premises, then check out and go home. No spending out of that zone - not for hard core gamblers, anyway. It's about convenience and centralization of amenities. It's an enclosed entity. Not sure just how much in the way of economic benefits really extend beyond the property line of these extravaganzas.

That may be true in places like AC, where there is not much else to do. That won't happen here. Look at my Miami example.

 

[coolcanadian]

Let me give you another example of how some people are overreacting based on the casino aspect of this.

I will use the picture from my Miami example that was posted above, which I hope you have taken the time to read.

Let's imagine this.

A new proposal for The Metro Toronto Convention centre.

It looks something like this:

The developer is planning on spending up to $6 billion on the project.

It will include

• Huge convention space
• 3 luxury hotels
• luxury condos
• a high end shopping mall
• multiple high end restaurants
• views of lake ontario
• fountain/outdoor experience
• nightclubs
• and spas

If that was the proposal, no one in the city would protest it. The fact that 5% of the building will contain a casino (something that will be built in the GTA nonetheless) doesn't really make a difference.

With $6 Billion, this is the kind of thing to expect. It will be another grand attraction. People will be able to goto the CN Tower one day, explore the city another day, spend time at the resort another day, goto the aquarium. It will not stop people from enjoying our other attractions!

People, understand that id the government builds a casino out in a suburb, it will be another Rama/Windsor/Niagara kind of thing.

If MGM builds this downtown, it will be an awesome major attraction!

 

[Markham VIP]

Why would you want it in Markham if it would ruin the downtown?

It wont be the same if built in DTM. In my opinion, if built in DTM, it wont be the monstrosity of a resort that you see in the above pictures. It wont be the enclosed, money-sucking entity that MGM and others are pitching. Instead, it will be built in a way that incorporates the arena, the VIP Cineplex, and all the local restaurants and high-end retail that are ALREADY planned for the area, but not there yet......

That's what the OLG has planned, to help the development in a local municipality.
The quote is from the CEO of OLG in an interview with Steve Paikin regarding the new casino......
It should fit into the broader opportunities within a region, around what a local government wants to accomplish. One of the things we haven’t done as well as we could have in the past is be aligned to the local municipalities own development expectations. So if there are parts of the GTA or a municipality where there is an interest in developing that place…you know this isn’t something that’s in people’s backyards, it’s going to be something that’s going to be in a location where it makes sense, where a municipality is trying to develop a portion of that area.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVNWPToM41U

 

[Markham VIP]

Coolcanadian.....

You mentioned that the casino/resort will include:
- Huge convention space - downtown Toronto already has lots of convention space....will they lose business?
- 3 luxury hotes - Toronto already has many luxury hotels...will they lose business to resort hotels?
- high end shopping mall - already many shopping options in downtown toronto....will they see decrease in tourist traffic?
- mulitple high end restaurants - once again, already many restaurants in downtown toronto, will they lose tourist business to restaurants within the monster resort?
- nightclubs/spas....same argument

My point....Downtown Toronto already has many many established businesses who already compete amongst each other for the tourist dollar. What will happen to all those businesses when you create a monster casino resort for them to compete with too?

 

[coolcanadian]

@MarkhamVIP

You cannot go in with that attitude. Should we never build nicer, larger hotels because they will take business away from other hotels?

Should we not put a Cirque type show because it might take business away from the Musicals?

Should we not build larger, cooler nightclubs because they might take business away from other ones?

No new restaurants because they could take business away from other ones?

The city will never be able to grow! Who says it won't just attract more people and add more to our industry?!

So now your against any big project, whether it be a casino or not.

You say "monster casino"... The casino is only 5% of the entire complex.

The convention centre is already potentially being redeveloped... It wouldn't hurt to make it a world class complex.

With your attitude, we will never get a supertall. It is too big, it will take business away from smaller buildings.

There are many restaurants and hotels in Melbourne, and they have a huge successful entertainment complex.

 

[Lenser]

coolcanadian: you wage a good campaign and clearly you're passionate about this. I guess we'll see what shakes out. I have no idea personally if this thing will land in Markham, Ontario Place, the Portlands... or elsewhere altogether.

 

[Markham VIP]

@MarkhamVIP

You cannot go in with that attitude. Should we never build nicer, larger hotels because they will take business away from other hotels?

Should we not put a Cirque type show because it might take business away from the Musicals?

Should we not build larger, cooler nightclubs because they might take business away from other ones?

No new restaurants because they could take business away from other ones?

The city will never be able to grow! Who says it won't just attract more people and add more to our industry?!

So now your against any big project, whether it be a casino or not.

You say "monster casino"... The casino is only 5% of the entire complex.

The convention centre is already potentially being redeveloped... It wouldn't hurt to make it a world class complex.

With your attitude, we will never get a supertall. It is too big, it will take business away from smaller buildings.

There are many restaurants and hotels in Melbourne, and they have a huge successful entertainment complex.

I undertand what you are saying.........but it is risky.
Can you say for sure that the monster resort's share of the tourist dollar will be equal or less than the marginal increase in the tourist market that will result from the new complex? In other words, let's say the current tourist market is $1 Billion, and let's say that the resort is anticipated to make $200 Million per year (just hypothetical numbers). Well you better make sure that the tourist market increases to at least $1.2 Billion, otherwise you are stealing business away from others. There is only so much tourist dollar to go around.

There is nothing wrong with the evolution of a city and it's economy. However, you have to be careful that you don't create a monster resort that will steal business away from many different industries at the same time, hotels, restaurants, retail, etc. It would be better if those industries changes gradually, for example, new luxury hotel built every few years, new restaurants opening up gradually to meet local demand, new entrepreneurs opening up retail shops gradually on their own. In my opinion, it is very risky to just plop a monstor casino resort right in downtown Toronto that will affect so many local estabilshed businesses, in so many different industries, all at the same time. The local economy of a city can be very fragile, if you are not careful you can do more harm than good.

 

[coolcanadian]

I understand what you are saying @MarkhamVIP. Let's just say I really want something amazing for Toronto! And a $6 Billion resort sounds amazing. But yes, I see the risk.

But I would hate to see some boring casino like Rama or Windsor built out in some suburb. If we are building a casino in the GTA, I would love it to be so much more. The potential of this is amazing! I would love to see what MGM can propose.

I'm so glad with what Toronto has become, and I think we are ready from something grand like this.

I don't gamble, but I see so much more than just a casino in this!