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adma
Superstar
It's like a casino is the right/libertarian response to taxation. That is, rather than having regular hard-working people pay taxes through the roof out of so-called "civic fairness", take the burden off said people and let the hardcore gamblers "pay" on their behalf, instead.
A little like the difference btw/ the mainstream-middle mass media norm of 30 or 40 years ago, and the talk-radio/Fox News-style cynical supertargeting of easy marks for colon-blow-+-Goldline quackvertisers. And those who complain about the latter: they're dead wood, anyway, good riddance...
A little like the difference btw/ the mainstream-middle mass media norm of 30 or 40 years ago, and the talk-radio/Fox News-style cynical supertargeting of easy marks for colon-blow-+-Goldline quackvertisers. And those who complain about the latter: they're dead wood, anyway, good riddance...
taal
Senior Member
I'm willing to take bets that the Casino goes ahead ...... but in Markham ... likely around the Arena (which will also go ahead).
Along the same lines, Oxford goes ahead with a scaled down version of the project that will expand / renovate the convention center, but add no retail space or condos, but a office tower (or set of the expansion such that an office tower can go ahead).
Any takers ?
Along the same lines, Oxford goes ahead with a scaled down version of the project that will expand / renovate the convention center, but add no retail space or condos, but a office tower (or set of the expansion such that an office tower can go ahead).
Any takers ?
RC8
Senior Member
Localised negative effects must come with localised benefits. If you want to build anything in a community that disproportionately impacts such community with crime and/or pollution, then said community must also benefit significantly somehow.
Right now all the burden would be carried by one of the most densely populated and self-sustained neighbourhoods in Canada, and the benefits would be reaped by dysfunctional communities elsewhere that refuse to live within their means.
The "this bringing jobz" mantra makes some sense when applied to derelict suburban communities desperate for investment, but people in downtown Toronto don't care for these jobs enough to sacrifice their safe walkable neighbourhoods. When the MTCC and the corner of Front and Spadina get developed there will be a flow of new jobs anyway and without a casino... everybody knows this.
In certain cases, such as increased density or power generation, you can criticise NIMBYs because they become free riders when power or density are inevitably put somewhere else. When it comes to this casino, those who presently oppose it are not and would not be free riders to anything or anyone.
RC8
Senior Member
I believe there will still be a substantial amount of retail included in any redevelopment by Oxford. I expect retail along Front, and possibly through a connection to the PATH. I also expect condos as part of said redevelopment.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
So i see, you dont want the casino and want more condo bldgs for that location....no mention of the two supertall office towers (you are most likely against)
Oxford is an office developer and not into the condo scene..... i sure hope they hold on to this site for the next 10-20 years for mainly office components,
000
Senior UT Member
taal
Senior Member
Keep this mind ....
The park / the retail / the hotel ... there are valid arguments to be had that these go hand in hand with a Casino ... in the sense that they would help the Casino thrive and vise versa.
In no way does this argument hold true for office or condo buildings. In other words, if Oxford plans to builds office towers as part of the casino Redevelopment, they'll be just as inclined to do it without the Casino.
The "supper tall" office towers would never go up on sepc, so this redevelopment would clearly be staged, and you can bet it'll take a while to lease up given the 4 million or so other developments already (or soon) to be starting.
Right I could see them wanting to put *some retail* on Front, but without a Casino I doubt it'll be to the same extent. Particularly given Riocan / Union station retail developments.
The park I'm sure is a big cost and it just a nice selling point for the Casino, so likely won't happen without it.
The park / the retail / the hotel ... there are valid arguments to be had that these go hand in hand with a Casino ... in the sense that they would help the Casino thrive and vise versa.
In no way does this argument hold true for office or condo buildings. In other words, if Oxford plans to builds office towers as part of the casino Redevelopment, they'll be just as inclined to do it without the Casino.
The "supper tall" office towers would never go up on sepc, so this redevelopment would clearly be staged, and you can bet it'll take a while to lease up given the 4 million or so other developments already (or soon) to be starting.
Right I could see them wanting to put *some retail* on Front, but without a Casino I doubt it'll be to the same extent. Particularly given Riocan / Union station retail developments.
The park I'm sure is a big cost and it just a nice selling point for the Casino, so likely won't happen without it.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
RC8
Senior Member
I would be most disappointed if any redevelopment here didn't include a very large office component. The towers in the proposal are sleek, but let's see what they present once the project ceases to be casino propaganda and becomes an actual application. I'm optimistic, personally.
jaycola
Active Member
RC8. Intelligent decision making actually comes through debate, not shutting down divergent opinions. You do not get to choose which are "the issue at hand" and my posts have been solely about the potential benefits and complications for Toronto of a resort casino. The exception being calling you out when you accused me of fear mongering. Calling another's opinions "ideological drivel" and mocking my position with ignorant statements such as "jobz mantra" is not part of the civil discourse on this forum.
If you disagree with my position, demonstrate where I am wrong using source material and studies. Do not attempts to shut down discussion on a public forum because you do not like the opinions of those opposed to your position. That is the purpose of these discussion boards and if you don't care for my opinions, you are perfectly free to ignore them and me. You should have little issue with that since you clearly ignore all dissenting information sourced, claiming the same unsubstantiated worries and fears.
Melbourne's casino, appears to me, to be the best example of an urban casino success story as seen by the revenue and salary numbers, jobs created and it's success in attracting high rolling tourists. In just 7 years it has achieved the status of the 17th most popular tourist destination in the world. A great accomplishment that assuredly brings a lot of money to the city. Putting the casino in the MTCC site will allow for the greatest possible success for the project drawing on the critical mass of adjoining hotels and tourists destinations already within this location.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
Since when does acquiring a decent portfolio of rental apartment buildings that others built make you a condo developer?
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TOperson
Active Member
I lived in Australia for a while. There were stories of parents leaving their kids in parked cars for hours while they gambled at the Melbourne casino. I think one kid might have died?
So, the Melbourne casino may have been a success in economic terms (limited ones at that), but there are other measures of success or failure.
Children being left in cars at casinos is a definite concern. Melbourne is not an isolated incident: http://www.casinowatch.org/children_gambling/children_abandoned_by_parents.html
Pets being left in cars is also a problem.
When I was doing some work with the gambling addictions program, I was told that the parking lots are regularly patrolled in Ontario to check cars for children and pets.
Pets being left in cars is also a problem.
When I was doing some work with the gambling addictions program, I was told that the parking lots are regularly patrolled in Ontario to check cars for children and pets.
Automation Gallery
Superstar
Im starting to think that with so much residential housing being proposed and built in that district,
that people like RC8 and the Area Residents Associations, without all facts, will fight "tooth and nail" any future major developments other than condos.. (convention centre, major retail mall, large office towers, stadium, etc.) that might effect their well-being, even if its good for the rest of Toronto
that people like RC8 and the Area Residents Associations, without all facts, will fight "tooth and nail" any future major developments other than condos.. (convention centre, major retail mall, large office towers, stadium, etc.) that might effect their well-being, even if its good for the rest of Toronto