[innsertnamehere]

yes, but it would not increase by $180 a year for 30 years, but rather stay at a one time $180 increase phased in over 4 years..

 

[datamouse]

Umm no. They're two completely different subways, serving two different trip patterns. Your logic makes about as much sense as "well Bloor-Danforth has a ridership of this, therefore Eglinton should be about the same".

Comparing peak ridership numbers to daily ridership numbers should be comparable. I don't see how Sheppard or this new Scarborough Subway will have different enough trip patterns to make difference.

 

[canmark]

Globe and Mail: Ford rejects Stintz's plan to fund transit

Toronto Mayor Rob Ford is rejecting out-of-hand a new proposal to pay for transit expansion with property tax hikes, saying he still believes the private sector would be willing to help fund new lines.

“I will not and cannot support the plan. The taxpayers cannot afford it. That’s the bottom line,†Mr. Ford said Wednesday.

“You can’t always go to the taxpayers for everything and that’s what it seems this plan looks for. There is a private sector that can get involved.â€

 

[datamouse]

Well Ford's more than foolish when it comes to spending money. I will say that instead of looking only at property taxes and money from the upper levels of government we should be looking at the private sector to finance part of it. Ford in his folly still foolishly believes that somehow the private sector will pay for all of it.

 

[gweed123]

Comparing peak ridership numbers to daily ridership numbers should be comparable. I don't see how Sheppard or this new Scarborough Subway will have different enough trip patterns to make difference.

Not really. The ridership on the SRT is already much higher now than even the projected 2031 ridership of the SELRT. And that's even with a pain-in-the-ass transfer in there. Remove that transfer, and get some more feeder routes into STC, and you'll see the ridership on the B-D extension easily get over 10,000 pphpd. Even if the Sheppard Subway extension was built, it would struggle to get over 6,000 pphpd east of Victoria Park.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

I find it weird that the OneCity presentation specifically mentions Centennial College, when that's like the main destination from Transit City that ISN'T served by OneCity.

 

[superman]

Would be interesting to see how the lines will be prioritized. This is just all the subway proposals, Transit City, and Bus Transit City thrown together with 2 rail lines infill. Also, 2/3 of the money is fantasy as the province and feds are unlikely to give $10 billion right now. But still, $10 billion by the city would go far to build alot of transit.

 

[innsertnamehere]

the thing is that it is not $10 billion, but rather $333 million a year for 30 years..

 

[Voltz]

I find it weird that the OneCity presentation specifically mentions Centennial College, when that's like the main destination from Transit City that ISN'T served by OneCity.

They would be referring to the Centennial campus next to UTSC

 

[jje1000]

More Hypocrisy

I hope people have a plan to get Denzil, Doug, Ford and Mammolitti out of office come 2014. Because they've firmly placed themselves on the wrong side of the debate today. Doubting a plan is fine. Rejecting a plan outright without discussion reeks of populism.

Only about 7B accounted for out of 30B. More than $22 billion unfunded. #onecity #showmethemoney

Cost estimates of 30 year 30B #onecity in 2011 dollars assumes no cost increases #topoli #unrealistic

Is #onecity true cost north of 100B? Certainly a lot more than 30B.

Does anyone believe that #onecity tax will stick at $180? #topoli

https://twitter.com/#!/DenzilMW

"I can guarantee I will not support it" Mayor Rob Ford on #onecity plan to @SunReporterYuen #TOpoli

"I will not and cannot support the plan. The taxpayers can't afford it" Mayor Rob Ford on #onecity to @SunReporterYuen #TOpoli

"I do think this is very much about Glenn De Baeremaeker trying to save his political skin in Scarborough with a subway" Milczyn #TOpoli

"This is about saving Glenn De Tax-maker's political ass" Cllr Doug Ford on #onecity plan #TOpoli

"I call this ad hoc politics" Mayor Rob Ford on #OneCity plan at Molson plant today #TOpoli

https://twitter.com/#!/reporterdonpeat

TTC tax plan faces opposition
By Don Peat, City Hall Bureau Chief
First posted: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 01:25 PM EDT | Updated: Wednesday, June 27, 2012 02:21 PM EDT

TORONTO - Mayor Rob Ford made it clear Wednesday he is not on board with Karen Stintz’s OneCity transit tax plan.

“I will not and cannot support the plan. The taxpayers can’t afford it. That’s the bottom line,” Ford said in Etobicoke Wednesday. “You can’t always go to the taxpayers for everything and that’s what it seems like this plan looks for. There’s a private sector out there that can get involved.”

Stintz, the TTC chairman and TTC vice-chairman Glenn DeBaeremaeker rolled out the plan at City Hall Wednesday.

The plan was dedicated, dependable and debt-free, Stintz argued.

“We’re calling this plan OneCity, we’ve had many names for many transit plans but what we’ve learned from the last debate was there was a division between what the suburbs felt they were getting in terms of transit and what they believe the downtown core was getting in transit. We think it is very important that we bring the city together as one city.”

The plan would see property tax on the average home go up around $180 a year to raise around $272 million to build transit. The duo also revealed a map of almost $30 billion worth of transit lines that included 72 km of subway lines, 73.5 km of LRT lines and 25.7 km of bus and streetcar lines.

“We’ve heard a lot of talk, it’s time for action right now,” De Baeremaeker said. “We’re taking the unpopular step of saying to our next door neighbours, we believe we’re going to have to phase in a tax over four year...and we’re going to use that to pay for transit.”

Ford and his allies were quick to dismiss the idea.

The mayor said Stintz didn’t discuss the specific details of the plan with him or his office before taking it public.

“Yesterday, she approached the chief of staff and said something is coming out, but nothing to do with the numbers,” Ford said. “Where this came from, I have no idea, but I can guarantee I will not support it.”

Councillor Doug Ford blasted the plan.

“It’s a tax city plan, it’s not a one city plan,” Ford said. “It’s unfunded. I don’t think they’ve run the numbers properly.”

The Etobicoke councillor said the idea hadn’t been fully thought out.

“This is going to be a tax on every business in the city, it is going to be a tax on every renter in the city and it is going to be a tax on every resident in this city,” Ford said.

While De Baeremaeker and Stintz stressed the plan was not about politics, Councillor Peter Milczyn predicted the push for a subway to Scarborough had everything to do with politics.

“I do think this is very much about Glenn De Baeremaeker trying to save his political skin in Scarborough with a subway,” Milczyn said. “Suddenly a subway in Scarborough is what we need. A few months ago, (he was saying) we can’t afford subways, we don’t really need subways. It is an interesting flip-flop.”

The proposed transit plan — which calls for the Bloor-Danforth subway line to be extended to the Scarborough Town Centre and up to Sheppard Ave. — reopens the Sheppard subway debate, Milczyn said.

“And then there are the curious things like the unilateral takeover the Air Rail link to turn it into some kind of TTC line out to the airport,” he said.

Milczyn also argued with this plan, the average property owner would be paying 20% more property tax in five years than they are now due to the transit tax and the regular property tax increases.

“Five years from now you’ll be paying 20% more property tax,” he said.

Councillor Josh Colle — who was one of the key councillors behind the plan — pointed out the main pillar of the transit plan is a subway in Scarborough.

“(It) shows we’re very much thinking of the mayor and council,” Colle said.

Colle said he thinks residents would support the increase because it is directed towards something identifiable.

“If they feel it just goes into nowhere, that’s where people get upset,” he said.

—Files from Jenny Yuen

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/27/ttc-tax-plan-faces-opposition

 

[innsertnamehere]

LOL. in 5 years, it people would be paying 7.6% more, and we are looking at a minimum of $8 billion in funding, even if the province and feds don't kick in. thats much more than the billion or so that ford could find in the private sector.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I think it's really quite interesting that, despite all the hand-waving, this seems to boil down to -- OK Scarborough, if you want a subway replacement for the SRT, we'll do that. But you have to pay up for proper transit everywhere else, as well.

Looks like the gauntlet has been thrown down for 2014.

 

[k10ery]

680 news has a poll up on their website, claiming that taxes will go up by $180 a year for 30 years for this, while in reality it is $45 a year for 4 years.. LOL

http://www.680news.com/news/local/article/377450--ttc-proposes-using-property-taxes-to-fund-30b-onecity-transit-plan

No it's $180. Didn't we have this conversation?

 

[datamouse]

A huge problem is the hope of provincial and federal money. The province has been a huge help but even they have cut back on money (but at least left Toronto with a whopping $8.4 billion.) The feds I don't have much hope for these days. They helped with Spadina extension but only contributed a paltry $300 million to the LRT projects (technically the $ only going towards Sheppard.)

Property taxes are always a hot issue in Toronto for right or wrong (I don't want to open this debate) and I fell that putting all the eggs in this basket wasn't a smart move politically at least. Look at a regional sales tax, congestion charges, private funding and then come back with a plan. The routes are mostly great but maybe the plan should have been delayed until all funding options are looked it.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

datamouse:

The other revenue tools, given their nature, should be discussed in conjunction with other municipalities. However, there is nothing wrong with the city at least start the process and at least try to come up with a chunk of the money. Should those other sources materialize I am sure they can be worked into the plan. Any tax is a hot issue in Toronto - playing the waiting game just delays the inevitable.

AoD