[kEiThZ]

Tory worked directly with Bill Davis as Principal Secretary for half a decade. Public Tranist investment in Toronto was pretty significant between '71 and '85 when Davis was premiere. I don't think you will see Tory complaining about the SRT at any time either for similar reasons.


I'm not at all surprised he has a similar interest in public transit in Toronto that Davis did. It makes good long term economic sense to make that investment as mobility constrains the cities growth, something not true in most places.

+1

John Tory is of the same mold that includes for example European conservatives who often will support spending on public transit over there. It's only conservative ideologues in North America who view transit in 'war on the car' terms.

 

[kEiThZ]

If someone who is fairly right-wing like Tory can come out and say that we need to find ways of funding transit, that says a lot. First of all, it says that we've gotten beyond the question of "do we need transit?", which all of us here are glad to see. The second thing it says is that the right is not just paying lipservice to transit the same way they do to social services, etc, they're actually looking for ways to fund it. Granted, Tory seems a bit left for the PC party, and Hudak has been rather silent about his stance on transit and its funding, so maybe we aren't out of the woods just yet.

But in any case, it's good to see that transit is becoming less of a left vs right issue, and more just an assumed need, like universal healthcare. No one in their right mind would dare go backwards on universal healthcare in this country. Hopefully transit funding will one day reach that same "touch my funding and I'll start a riot" state.

Sadly, as others have pointed out John Tory's breed is becoming less and less prevalent on the right. That we even have to wonder about politicians on the right who support transit expansion is worrisome. I really don't think though, that Hudak and company get it. They aren't cut from the same mold as John Tory. And they view his failure to be elected as reflective of the unpopularity of his moderate views. In fact, they view Harris' three terms as proof of the success you can have if you max out on wedge politics and run-up an anti-toronto frenzy. At best, their transit strategy would be an expansion of GO transit. And that's if they have a transit strategy.

All that said, I have long said that moderates on the right like John Tory need to brought into the fold and supported as they help sell transit to those who view such things as frills.

 

[GraphicMatt]

The issue with modern conservatism - and why I think it's largely a dead ideology - is that the infrastructure necessary to build cities and provinces and governments is getting incredibly expensive and yet conservatives continue to beat the Reagan-inspired drum of tax cuts.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Madrid is (was) busy building its kilometres of Metro (subway), but most of it is subsided by the EU and Spain. Now Spain is in financial problems because of its recent credit rating change. See this link. Whether or not their Metro expansion can continue may depend on who pays for it or not. They could change their plans from heavy rail to light rail, to save on costs, as one outcome. However, to cut building transit like Ontario did, and Toronto was already planning for light rail for the cost savings and expanded service?

My question is: is Ontario and Canada in a worse financial situation than Spain that they can't help their cities in building rapid transit in their cities?

 

[kEiThZ]

Madrid is (was) busy building its kilometres of Metro (subway), but most of it is subsided by the EU and Spain. Now Spain is in financial problems because of its recent credit rating change. See this link. Whether or not their Metro expansion can continue may depend on who pays for it or not. They could change their plans from heavy rail to light rail, to save on costs, as one outcome. However, to cut building transit like Ontario did, and Toronto was already planning for light rail for the cost savings and expanded service?

My question is: is Ontario and Canada in a worse financial situation than Spain that they can't help their cities in building rapid transit in their cities?

Spain's problems go well beyond paying a few billion to build metros. And Spain has received huge susbsidies from the EU. They probably paid as much as Toronto's LRT plans and got subways for that with subsidies from the EU.

While I would not advocate for Canada to aim to achieve the same fiscal status as Spain, you are right, that we could do more. I see no reason why Toronto should not get a $20-$25 billion plan that includes some subway expansion, LRT and BRT, built over 20-25 years, paid for by all three levels of government.

 

[SimonP]

Rob Ford has released the outlines of his transit plan: cancel Transit City in favour of new subways. He would pay for transit by "tapping the private sector to do the work, in exchange for the ability to put lucrative development on top of subway stations."

 

[rbt]

Rob Ford has released the outlines of his transit plan: cancel Transit City in favour of new subways. He would pay for transit by "tapping the private sector to do the work, in exchange for the ability to put lucrative development on top of subway stations."

I think it would be pretty challenging for Toronto to expropriate land for private development after the whole Dundas Square issue.

I do agree with selling off air-rights and building stations, more like York Mills Station, but more because of the form than the money. The city would need to find a dozen developments for each station to pay off a single station without considering tunnel.

Ford's plan seems like a good way to delay the start of any project by 5 years while negotiating with possible partners. Construction inflation would easily be more than what the partners would bring to the table.

In short, it's a great way to gut the little bit of transit investment we do have while looking good.


As a comparison, L-Tower required private investment to help rebuild the theatre (roughly $10M or 1/4th the renovation cost). Negotiations, sales, etc. caused about a 4 year delay.

A 4 year delay to building a $2B subway could add $400M or more to the total price tag; and you get $10M per structure within downtown, significantly less in the burbs, for the delay.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I love that 'involving the private sector' is apparently now code for 'getting things for free somehow!'

Sure hope this populism doesn't take hold. At least Thomson's plan is backed with an idea.

 

[nfitz]

Gee ... getting the private sector involved with Union Station turned out so well. The Union Pearson group must have delayed the redevelopment of that for years, before they ran away from the project.

Is Ford a complete and total idiot? How could anyone who sat in council during that whole thing propose such a preposterous scheme? I can only conclude that he wasn't sober enough to recall those events.

 

[kettal]

Sadly, as others have pointed out John Tory's breed is becoming less and less prevalent on the right. That we even have to wonder about politicians on the right who support transit expansion is worrisome. I really don't think though, that Hudak and company get it. They aren't cut from the same mold as John Tory. And they view his failure to be elected as reflective of the unpopularity of his moderate views. In fact, they view Harris' three terms as proof of the success you can have if you max out on wedge politics and run-up an anti-toronto frenzy. At best, their transit strategy would be an expansion of GO transit. And that's if they have a transit strategy.

All that said, I have long said that moderates on the right like John Tory need to brought into the fold and supported as they help sell transit to those who view such things as frills.

John Tory the private citizen is a cool guy. John Tory the politician was the candidate who called road tolls "highway robbery", and utterly failed to respond to Moveontario 2020.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

See? Now some people can acutally vote Ford without holding their nose. Wasn't that hard to come up with a platform, now was it Robert?

 

[kEiThZ]

John Tory the private citizen is a cool guy. John Tory the politician was the candidate who called road tolls "highway robbery", and utterly failed to respond to Moveontario 2020.

Politics is politics. I hardly expect him to come out and say his opponents platform was a great idea. But the guy is not a moron. I fully expected him to change course if he was elected.

 

[SimonP]

Politics is politics. I hardly expect him to come out and say his opponents platform was a great idea. But the guy is not a moron. I fully expected him to change course if he was elected.

I agree, and this is same reason I'd be pretty surprised to ever be riding a Rob Ford subway. Ford needs to say something about transit, but when he has to make a serious decision between transit and tax cuts his record makes it pretty clear which he would pick.

 

[EnviroTO]

In todays news it was made clear that the city had offered to fund the Transit City projects and cover all the interest if the province agreed to pay it pay the $4B in a 10 year time frame. This is a deal that is better to the province than any P3 project would be... buy in 2010 dollars and pay it back in 2020. However the province didn't take the deal. If this isn't evidence that the money isn't coming back then I don't know what is. Any P3 project has you pay less up front and more in the future... this is pay less up front and less due to inflation in the future and they still didn't take it!

 

[rbt]

In todays news it was made clear that the city had offered to fund the Transit City projects and cover all the interest if the province agreed to pay it pay the $4B in a 10 year time frame. This is a deal that is better to the province than any P3 project would be... buy in 2010 dollars and pay it back in 2020. However the province didn't take the deal. If this isn't evidence that the money isn't coming back then I don't know what is. Any P3 project has you pay less up front and more in the future... this is pay less up front and less due to inflation in the future and they still didn't take it!

Indeed. The best part of that offer is that it sounded like a win for the city as well as they wouldn't need to buy buses.

The excuse the province made was sound though. A promise to repay is going to be debt on the books which was the issue in the first place.

The city could make the offer in legislation of similar value that would not appear as debt. For example, Toronto, York, Peel, Durham, Hamilton, and Ottawa could ask for the ability to charge a sales tax, fuel surcharge, or other in exchange for taking on the debt.

The outgoing mayors would take the heat while getting something done. McGuinty gets books cleaned up and while stating the tax was by popular demand (forced even) and can still go to a lot of ribbon cuttings.

I don't think there is enough time to implement something like that though.