[ehlow]

I think there is a lot higher stigma attached to public transit in the upper-middle class - wealthy community in this city than we like to admit.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but in my personal opinion people will use the method that's easiest and shortest travel time, with some consideration of cost.

So if parking is inconvenient and far from the office or insanely expensive, it pushes them towards transit.

I know lots of people who work around the King-Spadina to King-University area who make lots of money and own cars. Not a single one I can think of drives there. From what I hear it's just too difficult to do so.

Having said that, if there is parking available and reasonably priced in the Bay St bank towers, then I can imagine some choosing to drive. On the other hand, my experience driving downtown during rush hour makes me never want to drive down there. It's just too annoying to me compared to the convenience of the subway.

 

[ehlow]

Nonsense. People think LRT is second class because they perceive it as slow. And there is some factual basis to that. LRT will definitely be slower than a subway. On the flip side, LRT is faster than a bus, but that's largely because of two features you could easily implement on buses: exclusive right-of-ways and wider stop spacing. How fast would buses be going if they had their own lanes and stops were spaced 400m apart?

That really depends. The Scaborough LRT would have been probably faster than most parts of the subway. The Eglinton LRT underground part will obviously have as fast speeds as similar parts of the Bloor line. Sheppard & Finch, you're right, will be between a bus & subway in terms of speed. However you do get more stops (which are also cheaper) in return, which can make sense in some contexts.

 

[TOareaFan]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but in my personal opinion people will use the method that's easiest and shortest travel time, with some consideration of cost.

Sure we can agree to disagree...that is what discussion is about...opinions. But I do think that cost/time/ease are bundled into one big "what I like" analysis.....and a lot of people like their cars and the comfort/privacy that they bring.

So if parking is inconvenient and far from the office or insanely expensive, it pushes them towards transit.

I know lots of people who work around the King-Spadina to King-University area who make lots of money and own cars. Not a single one I can think of drives there. From what I hear it's just too difficult to do so.


Having said that, if there is parking available and reasonably priced in the Bay St bank towers, then I can imagine some choosing to drive. On the other hand, my experience driving downtown during rush hour makes me never want to drive down there. It's just too annoying to me compared to the convenience of the subway.

Well, I can speak to this a bit......I live in the 905 work at King/Uni (right on top of the subway). Drive and park about 50% -75% of the time (various factors influence me) and transit the others. When I drive, the least frustrating part of my drive is the part of the commute that would be considered downtown. Generally, the only time it gets frustrating is when some surprise construction project pops up....but,really, that happens everywhere anyway.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

At this point, after years of riding the rickety SRT and being promised years and years of change, you can bet that Scarberians feel slighted. And with good reason. Transit investment seems to mysteriously run short at Victoria Park. And for all those cries about ridership, there seems to be no issues sending subways to grassfields in Vaughan. But heaven forbid that somebody invest in a subway along a corridor that falls just below the arbitrary (and ever moving) threshold decided by the powers that be.

Let's not be overdramatic about the whole Vic Park thing (and independent of the merit of extending BD to STC, which isn't too shaky) - it rather conveniently ignored the fact that the line is extended to Warden and Kennedy. Now if you want to argue that it is still a chore to get to the subway, that's well and good, but even after the extension to STC the ride will still be relatively slow given the distance involved. For rapid access, you really need a GO communter-rail service with fewer stops - and yet I don't hear anyone from Scarborough proposing that we scrap the BD extension and use the money for the latter.

This is UT. It's a bit of a bubble from reality. It's very true. Transit is very much a second choice for those that are well off. And the irony here (from the UT point of view) is that the closer you live to the core (in all those public transit accessible areas), the easier it is to drive to work. The marginal cost may be higher in relative terms, but it's low in absolute terms. If takes you 20 mins on transit but 30 mins in a car, sure your commute is 50% longer, but it's also only 10 minutes longer and you're not standing the whole way in a crowded subway car. For some that's a good trade-off.

In my experience, this set of folks, supports public transit like they do communism: great idea for everyone else.

To be clear, we are talking about people who live in Old Toronto and maybe East York. That's a radius I would say would allow relatively easy access to the core. And we are talking a subset who are also truly well off. Not just 100k per year, which is solidly middle class these days in Hogtown.

That's really nothing new though, the truly wealthy tend to use transit less regardless of where they live (like how often do you see those in the Kingsway area in Etobicoke ride transit, really?) - and at the end of the day, do you rather this minority of individuals, regardless of their location, NOT support transit? Besides, I would dare to put myself on a limb and say that this wealthy upper class is still more likely to use transit in the core than out in the burbs.

Sure we can agree to disagree...that is what discussion is about...opinions. But I do think that cost/time/ease are bundled into one big "what I like" analysis.....and a lot of people like their cars and the comfort/privacy that they bring.

Well, I can speak to this a bit......I live in the 905 work at King/Uni (right on top of the subway). Drive and park about 50% -75% of the time (various factors influence me) and transit the others. When I drive, the least frustrating part of my drive is the part of the commute that would be considered downtown. Generally, the only time it gets frustrating is when some surprise construction project pops up....but,really, that happens everywhere anyway.

But of course, a part of the drive that makes up what, 10% of your trip (by distance and especially travel time) is likely to be least frustrating regardless of where it happens.

AoD

 

[ehlow]

To be clear, we are talking about people who live in Old Toronto and maybe East York. That's a radius I would say would allow relatively easy access to the core. And we are talking a subset who are also truly well off. Not just 100k per year, which is solidly middle class these days in Hogtown.

OK, I admit I was talking more of people who make 80-100k per year, which to me is still a pretty good salary, and many own cars & property.

I actually think a lot of those who work at the Bay St towers make that or less, even though yes I'm sure some make way way more.

 

[ehlow]

Sure we can agree to disagree...that is what discussion is about...opinions. But I do think that cost/time/ease are bundled into one big "what I like" analysis.....and a lot of people like their cars and the comfort/privacy that they bring.



Well, I can speak to this a bit......I live in the 905 work at King/Uni (right on top of the subway). Drive and park about 50% -75% of the time (various factors influence me) and transit the others. When I drive, the least frustrating part of my drive is the part of the commute that would be considered downtown. Generally, the only time it gets frustrating is when some surprise construction project pops up....but,really, that happens everywhere anyway.

Interesting, thanks for sharing. If you don't mind me asking though: let's say that you lived in Rosedale within walking distance of the station and money was not a concern, you own whatever car you'd like. Would you still drive to King & University?

 

[aquateam]

Nonsense. People think LRT is second class because they perceive it as slow. And there is some factual basis to that. LRT will definitely be slower than a subway. On the flip side, LRT is faster than a bus, but that's largely because of two features you could easily implement on buses: exclusive right-of-ways and wider stop spacing. How fast would buses be going if they had their own lanes and stops were spaced 400m apart?

If there was enough ventilation you could run buses in subway tunnels too. And buses on highways go pretty fast. Speed isn't really so much a technical limitation of public transit as it is an operational one. I would prefer to have rail-based transport in my neighbourhood, though, when you factor in things like permanency, comfort, noise and emissions.

At this point, after years of riding the rickety SRT and being promised years and years of change, you can bet that Scarberians feel slighted. And with good reason. Transit investment seems to mysteriously run short at Victoria Park. And for all those cries about ridership, there seems to be no issues sending subways to grassfields in Vaughan. But heaven forbid that somebody invest in a subway along a corridor that falls just below the arbitrary (and ever moving) threshold decided by the powers that be.

It's not like 3 of the 4 transit city lines, comprising several billion dollars, were meant to go into scarborough. ECLRT, SELRT and the SMLRT all run east of Victoria Park.

I think what makes people more upset about the Bloor-Danforth extension is how completely unnecessary it is. There is already a rapid transit corridor right there, isolated from traffic, and yet the plan is to tunnel. Not to mention the GO tracks nearby, which are planned for frequent all-day service by the time the extension actually opens.

 

[TOareaFan]

Interesting, thanks for sharing. If you don't mind me asking though: let's say that you lived in Rosedale within walking distance of the station and money was not a concern, you own whatever car you'd like. Would you still drive to King & University?

Like I said, I use transit far more than anyone I know in my social network so I am not the right one to ask. I sometimes (fairly rarely) need my car during the day. If I lived within a walk of a subway station I would likely just drive to work on Monday morning, leave it parked under here during the week and drive it home on Friday night. In fact, I have warned my wife that if we ever got AD2W rail service on our GO line that is what I would do then.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

My dad had a free parking sport at First Canadian Place. He works in Mississauga now, and parks across the street to avoid the tickets.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I don't understand this attitude - traffic is awful in Toronto, who really wants to drive in rush hour in this city and pay an arm and a leg for parking? I would have thought most people who drive would either be people who work in the suburbs or people who work downtown but live in areas with poor transit service. Then again, Yonge line overcrowding might explain this. Getting stuck in traffic on Avenue/Yonge/Mt. Pleasant/Bayview may be seen as preferable to taking an overcrowded subway. I think that if the downtown relief line got built then people would stop doing this.

Most of the rich neighbourhoods in Toronto proper are within a few km of the subway. The Bridle Path has poor bus service but isn't all that far from bus route 11 or 54, but I'm pretty sure that people of that level of wealth will never use the subway even if the DVP is moving slowly. The ordinary rich (people who live in million dollar houses close to Yonge St) definitely do use the subway, and many people who live in those neighbourhoods are poor people living in apartment buildings who certainly use the subway. The only rich neighbourhood in Toronto that isn't within a few km of the subway is Rouge Hill in Scarborough. On the other hand, there are many rich areas in the 905 like Oakville which are nowhere near a subway stop.

Having good subway service does not guarantee that an area won't be a bad neighbourhood. Having lots of subway lines does not make Harlem or the Bronx rich. I don't think that Kennedy Station or Lawrence Heights or Keele/Finch will ever be desirable neighbourhoods. However the Toronto real estate bubble means that $500K for a house in the poorest neighbourhoods in the city is common.

The guy in the next office to mine is the fittest guy I know....cycles daily after work and cycles competitively....not an ounce of fat on the guy......lives, also, about a 5 - 7 minute walk from a subway station....our office sits atop a subway station......does not have company paid parking in our building........drives his prius to the office every single day!

He is just an example....like I said, most of my friends work in the towers down here.....most, unlike me, live in the city and most in very nice 'hoods near the subway.....and they seldom use the subway. I would say I use public transit more than anyone in my social network.....and they don't understand why I do.

I think there is a lot higher stigma attached to public transit in the upper-middle class - wealthy community in this city than we like to admit.

Nonsense. People think LRT is second class because they perceive it as slow. And there is some factual basis to that. LRT will definitely be slower than a subway. On the flip side, LRT is faster than a bus, but that's largely because of two features you could easily implement on buses: exclusive right-of-ways and wider stop spacing. How fast would buses be going if they had their own lanes and stops were spaced 400m apart?

At this point, after years of riding the rickety SRT and being promised years and years of change, you can bet that Scarberians feel slighted. And with good reason. Transit investment seems to mysteriously run short at Victoria Park. And for all those cries about ridership, there seems to be no issues sending subways to grassfields in Vaughan. But heaven forbid that somebody invest in a subway along a corridor that falls just below the arbitrary (and ever moving) threshold decided by the powers that be.

At this point, I am resigned to the fact that other nothing will be built or the LRT will be rammed through. The only consolation for me, is that the whole crop of politicians, of all levels, who impose 2hr long commutes on buses for 2-3 years during construction, will pay at the polls at all subsequent elections.

If you're important enough, your workplace will pay for your parking as part of compensation. Heck, if you are important enough, there will be somebody else driving you to work. And this is not as uncommon as many here would think. A parking pass is miniscule to how much a trader makes his bank. These guys also get free meals and booze. You think the bank cares about $20-$25 per day in parking?



This is UT. It's a bit of a bubble from reality. It's very true. Transit is very much a second choice for those that are well off. And the irony here (from the UT point of view) is that the closer you live to the core (in all those public transit accessible areas), the easier it is to drive to work. The marginal cost may be higher in relative terms, but it's low in absolute terms. If takes you 20 mins on transit but 30 mins in a car, sure your commute is 50% longer, but it's also only 10 minutes longer and you're not standing the whole way in a crowded subway car. For some that's a good trade-off.

In my experience, this set of folks, supports public transit like they do communism: great idea for everyone else.

To be clear, we are talking about people who live in Old Toronto and maybe East York. That's a radius I would say would allow relatively easy access to the core. And we are talking a subset who are also truly well off. Not just 100k per year, which is solidly middle class these days in Hogtown.

That really depends. The Scaborough LRT would have been probably faster than most parts of the subway. The Eglinton LRT underground part will obviously have as fast speeds as similar parts of the Bloor line. Sheppard & Finch, you're right, will be between a bus & subway in terms of speed. However you do get more stops (which are also cheaper) in return, which can make sense in some contexts.

Sure we can agree to disagree...that is what discussion is about...opinions. But I do think that cost/time/ease are bundled into one big "what I like" analysis.....and a lot of people like their cars and the comfort/privacy that they bring.



Well, I can speak to this a bit......I live in the 905 work at King/Uni (right on top of the subway). Drive and park about 50% -75% of the time (various factors influence me) and transit the others. When I drive, the least frustrating part of my drive is the part of the commute that would be considered downtown. Generally, the only time it gets frustrating is when some surprise construction project pops up....but,really, that happens everywhere anyway.

Let's not be overdramatic about the whole Vic Park thing (and independent of the merit of extending BD to STC, which isn't too shaky) - it rather conveniently ignored the fact that the line is extended to Warden and Kennedy. Now if you want to argue that it is still a chore to get to the subway, that's well and good, but even after the extension to STC the ride will still be relatively slow given the distance involved. For rapid access, you really need a GO communter-rail service with fewer stops - and yet I don't hear anyone from Scarborough proposing that we scrap the BD extension and use the money for the latter.



That's really nothing new though, the truly wealthy tend to use transit less regardless of where they live (like how often do you see those in the Kingsway area in Etobicoke ride transit, really?) - and at the end of the day, do you rather this minority of individuals, regardless of their location, NOT support transit? Besides, I would dare to put myself on a limb and say that this wealthy upper class is still more likely to use transit in the core than out in the burbs.



But of course, a part of the drive that makes up what, 10% of your trip (by distance and especially travel time) is likely to be least frustrating regardless of where it happens.

AoD

If there was enough ventilation you could run buses in subway tunnels too. And buses on highways go pretty fast. Speed isn't really so much a technical limitation of public transit as it is an operational one. I would prefer to have rail-based transport in my neighbourhood, though, when you factor in things like permanency, comfort, noise and emissions.


It's not like 3 of the 4 transit city lines, comprising several billion dollars, were meant to go into scarborough. ECLRT, SELRT and the SMLRT all run east of Victoria Park.

I think what makes people more upset about the Bloor-Danforth extension is how completely unnecessary it is. There is already a rapid transit corridor right there, isolated from traffic, and yet the plan is to tunnel. Not to mention the GO tracks nearby, which are planned for frequent all-day service by the time the extension actually opens.

Like I said, I use transit far more than anyone I know in my social network so I am not the right one to ask. I sometimes (fairly rarely) need my car during the day. If I lived within a walk of a subway station I would likely just drive to work on Monday morning, leave it parked under here during the week and drive it home on Friday night. In fact, I have warned my wife that if we ever got AD2W rail service on our GO line that is what I would do then.

I started this firestorm. So I will amend that most areas beside RT have higher property values. I believe this is the primary motivation behind the Bloor Danforth extension and Sheppard. Alvin, I think they are not pushing for GO because they are either ill informed or they don't think GO will provide the same land value benefits.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I started this firestorm. So I will amend that most areas beside RT have higher property values. I believe this is the primary motivation behind the Bloor Danforth extension and Sheppard. Alvin, I think they are not pushing for GO because they are either ill informed or they don't think GO will provide the same land value benefits.

I think the support behind subways is complex and not attributable to one group - some stands to benefit due to increase in property values, others support it because it doesn't take away road space; still other support it because in the absence of/knowledge of alternatives they genuinely think it will (and it does) benefit their commute, though plausibly less than they'd think in comparison to other alternatives; and still others way support is solely on the basis of "the slight".

One thing I do find very, very interesting is the incongruence between revenues needed for subway extension and the lack of support for the mechanisms needed - which suggests to me at the end of the day the subway thing is really a sort of crypto-support for status quo - don't want new taxes, want subways but that's only because it doesn't take away my car lanes and someone else is paying for the greatest majority of the cost. It's transit decision-making by non-transit users, essentially.

AoD

 

[andrewpmk]

OK, I admit I was talking more of people who make 80-100k per year, which to me is still a pretty good salary, and many own cars & property.

I actually think a lot of those who work at the Bay St towers make that or less, even though yes I'm sure some make way way more.

LOL 100K/year is not middle class. The median income in Toronto is only 27K/year. 100K/year before tax puts you above the 90th percentile of incomes. Most of Toronto's population doesn't have very much money and Toronto has above-average levels of poverty. I know it may not seem that way when it costs $1 million to buy a decent house in this city, but buying a house in any of the nicer parts of the GTA nowadays is for the very rich only, you practically have to be in the top 1% (and have two incomes) to afford Toronto real estate bubble prices nowadays.

Because Toronto traffic is horrible I think that many rich people will use transit, though the very very rich (a tiny fraction of the population) won't. I don't understand paying $30/day or $500/month or whatever for downtown parking. You do see a significant number of fancy cars driving to and from rich neighbourhoods north of downtown in rush hour, but my guess is most of the people who use downtown parking live way out in the suburbs and pay the inflated parking prices because the transit service in their area is bad.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And let's not forget, by the time transit get to the shoulder and core area it's fairly untenable and unreliable as a mode of transit during the rush. Someone will have to be relatively insane to try to use the YUS in the core to get to another place in the core - it's not time competitive and you might as well walk and avoid the crowds. Ditto streetcars.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

That really depends. The Scaborough LRT would have been probably faster than most parts of the subway. The Eglinton LRT underground part will obviously have as fast speeds as similar parts of the Bloor line. Sheppard & Finch, you're right, will be between a bus & subway in terms of speed. However you do get more stops (which are also cheaper) in return, which can make sense in some contexts.

People keep bringing up this whole caveat "faster speeds in the tunnel". That's only relevant if the tunnel constitutes the majority of your travel. Not the case for someone originating in scarborough and heading to the core or midtown. And entirely irrelevant to the LRT discussion for all of Scarborough, where there will be no tunnelled LRTs.

Not to say I don't support LRT. But shady caveated talking points isn't going to help the cause. It comes across as an attempted bait and switch. "This will be exactly like a subway. Promise! (Caveat: only in a tunnel which won't touch your hood)." Nor will double standards, like the one where Vaughan gets a subway, but the folks who actually pay taxes to the City of Toronto, don't. This grievance will only get worse when Yonge is extended to Richmond Hill (even though the extension has a great case).

 

[kEiThZ]

One thing I do find very, very interesting is the incongruence between revenues needed for subway extension and the lack of support for the mechanisms needed - which suggests to me at the end of the day the subway thing is really a sort of crypto-support for status quo - don't want new taxes, want subways but that's only because it doesn't take away my car lanes and someone else is paying for the greatest majority of the cost. It's transit decision-making by non-transit users, essentially.

AoD

Sometimes, I think people on UT don't talk to real residents of this city who actually take transit. You honestly believe that people in Scarborough clamouring for subways, want them because they want to drive to work? I don't like to get political on this. But this is lefty nonsense that has come up in direct reaction to Rob Ford's "War on the Car" propaganda.

Is it really that difficult for members in this forum to actually understand and accept that the average Joe just wants to get to work, and home to his/her family quicker? Honestly....let me know why this concept is beyond the grasp of many here. I'm really curious.